105 replies

  1. Cannot is more comforting than a deity that will not. Hence the number of Auschwitz survivors that lost their faith.

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  2. Dear Mr Williams

    I fear that the Serpent has slithered its way into the heart of Evalyn. The devil is currently enjoying a brisk trade in souls.
    Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos Mary, pray to God for us !

    God Love you

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  3. Evalyn, what is the problem with injustice in the world and the belief in God. If this was paradise and there was injustice in paradise, then I can totally understand one having one’s faith challenged.

    But this is obviously not paradise. This is earth….hello, this is earth.

    And earth is a place of testing.

    Do you expect anything else other than challenges, difficulties, hardships in a test.

    Obviously, God will test us before He judges some to be punished and some to receive a generous reward.

    It boggles my mind why the “problem of evil” bothers people.

    There is no problem.

    In fact, if we were on this earth and there were no difficulties, then THAT could be a problem with the belief in God.

    This is because we should expect that God, the One who is absolutely just by definition would test us before putting some of us in hell and some in heaven.

    Evalyn, with love and care, I ask you to wake up before you see yourself in a place you wish you were not in, somewhere that in comparison this earth would be immeasurably better.

    Let us not be stubborn but let us let our hearts receive the connection of God before we fall into the irrational occupation with the absurd idea that we expect a test to not be a test but to be a paradise!

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    • God calls himself a loving father. He says this love is unconditional. That’s incongruent with a need to test one’s children. You don’t reward your kids with ice cream if they pass the test, but just because you love them. Don’t you blaze with anger when someone mistreats your own? Why does God seem to do nothing?

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  4. Some Holocaust survivors kept their faith in God and also even, subconsciously called their own suffering, “A Calvary” (the Latin word for the hill that Jesus was crucified on – Golgotha)

    See Elie Wiesel’s words (one of the most famous Holocaust survivors) and the hope that John Piper offers in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-passion-of-jesus-christ-and-the-passion-of-auschwitz
    At one point—and only one—Wiesel links Calvary and the camps. He tells of an old Rabbi, Akiba Dumer.

    Akiba Dumer left us, a victim of the selection. Lately, he had wandered among us, his eyes glazed, telling everyone of his weakness: “I can’t go on . . . It’s all over . . .” It was impossible to raise his morale. He didn’t listen to what we told him. He could only repeat that all was over for him. . . . Suddenly his eyes would become blank, nothing but two open wounds, two pits of terror. (Elie Wiesel, Night [New York: Bantam Books, 1982, orig. 1960], p. 72)

    Then Wiesel makes this provocative comment: “Poor Akiba Dumer, if he could have gone on believing in God, if he could have seen a proof of God in this Calvary, he would not have been taken by the selection” (p. 73). I will not presume to put any words in Elie Wiesel’s mouth. I am not sure what he meant. But it presses the question: Why the link between Calvary and the concentration camp?

    I am not thinking here of cause or blame. I am thinking of hope. Is there a way that Jewish suffering may find, not its cause, but its final meaning in the suffering of Jesus Christ? Is it possible to think, not of Christ’s passion leading to Auschwitz, but of Auschwitz leading to an understanding of Christ’s passion? Is the link between Calvary and the camps a link of unfathomable empathy? Perhaps only Jesus in the end can know what happened during the “one long night” (p. 32) of Jewish suffering. And perhaps a generation of Jewish people, whose grandparents endured their own noxious crucifixion, will be able to, as no others, to grasp what happened to the Son of God at Calvary.

    I leave it as a question. I do not know.

    But this I know: those ostensible Christians who built the camps never knew the love that moved Jesus Christ toward Calvary. They never knew the Christ, who instead of killing to save a culture, died to save the world. But there are some Christians—the true Christians—who have seen the meaning of the passion of Jesus Christ, and have been broken and humbled and silenced by his suffering. Could it be that these, perhaps better than many, might be able to see, and at least begin to fathom, the suffering of Jewish people in the Holocaust?

    (This is an excerpt from the book Fifty Reasons Why Jesus Came to Die.)

    I recommend John Piper’s book, Fifty Reasons Why Jesus came to Die.

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  5. “For whatever reason God chose to make man as he is – limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death – He had the honesty and the courage to take His own medicine. Whatever game He is playing with His creation, He has kept His own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that He has not exacted from Himself. He has Himself gone through the whole of human experience, from the trivial irritations of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation and defeat, despair and death. When He was a man, He played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worth while.”
    (Dorothy Sayers, Creed or Chaos? New York: Harcourt, Brace and Col, 149, p. 4; cited in Josh McDowell and Don Stewart, Answers to Tough Questions. Here’s Life Publishers, 1980, p. 153-154.

    My Iranian friend Kamyar, who was my second Farsi teacher in 1994, said this to me:

    “The two most amazing things about Christianity are:
    1. That God, who we were taught in Islam, was far off and aloof, became a man like us, clothed Himself in flesh.”
    and
    2. That there is a way to be saved from sin and know it and have assurance of it.
    “دو چیز خیلی عالی است در مسیحیت
    1. که خدا، که ما در اسلام تعلیم یافتیم که خیلی دور از ما می ماند، انسان شد مثل ما شد، و خود را جسم پوشید،
    و 2. که یک راهی را وجود دارد برای نجات از گناه و می توانیم آن راه را بدانیم، و اطمینان داشته باشیم
    .

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    • @ Ken

      Your kafir friend is an idiot:

      1. In the OT God is “far off” and this argument makes no logical sense. God can still be close to Creation without physically being there. Which is why this doesn’t answer Evalyn’s contention. Saying “He left us His books” refutes Kamyar’s dump point about God “became close to us”.

      2. You have no assurance whatsoever. Do you have a contract with God saying you and Kamyar are going to heaven? Didn’t think so. It is the most arrogant thing on planet Earth to say you have “assurance of heaven”

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      • Even the OT is much richer and demonstrates the love and compassion of God much more than the external Sharia-law of the Al Jabbar tyrant, Allah, of Islam.

        Yes, we have assurance of heaven, eternal life. There are many verses on God’s promise of His forgiveness and eternal life in the NT. Promises given by the Living God 600 years before your late man-made religion.
        John 5:24
        John 3:16
        Acts 16:31
        Romans 10:9-10
        1 John 5:12-14
        John 11:25
        Revelation 20, 21, 22
        Colossians 1:5
        1 Peter 1:3-5

        It is Islam that is Jabr جبر (force, leading to fatalism), coming from the Al Jabbar (the one who forces). (Because of the lack of love in God, incarnation, atonement, the power of the Holy Spirit, improper understanding of the sinfulness of mankind.)

        You have no:
        1. love of God. “God is love” – 1 John 4:8
        2. Fatherhood of God
        3. Incarnation
        4. Atonement
        5. Power of the Holy Spirit to obey the laws of Islam – the external fear and force of Sharia forces many Muslims to be hypocrites privately and secretly and it does not deal with the roots of sin. (Matthew 5:21-30; Mark 7:20-23; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9)

        Therefore, you have no peace or assurance, because Islam denies all the major doctrines and truths that accomplish these things.

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  6. But God isn’t among us right now. We can’t sit face to face over a frappucino and discuss toxic theology.

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    • That is why He left us with His written word. (OT and NT)

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      • And the apocrypha and the expanded Ethiopian canon.

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      • Philo, Josephus, and the Jews agreed that the last books of the OT were Esther, Nehemiah, Malachi, Chronicles – same OT canon as TaNakH and Protestant canon.
        Jerome agreed.
        Jesus taught it also. Luke 24:44; Luke 11:51
        Josephus, Against Apion, 1:8, agrees with Protestant understanding of the canon of the OT.

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      • The Acts of Paul and Thecla is a rousing read. Almost as good as the Shepherd of Hermas or the Didache. I really need to read all the ancient writings just in case God speaks through them in a similar way as Narnia or LotR.

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      • Those works are not inspired. There is value in the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas for understanding early second century Christianity, but they are not inspired books. Other early church writers provide evidence that the Acts of Paul and Telca was a forged/apocryphal document.
        Seems like you just throw stuff out on different issues to avoid the clear things like the Love of God, the Fatherhood of God, the incarnation and atonement, etc. – the main things that help our faith – you said something like your faith faded or is no longer there. Why the constant “but, look over here at this other issue?” (at the same avoiding all the clear encouraging stuff about God’s love in Jesus Christ?)

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      • I’ve always been the sort who understands many aspects of a thing, I’ve never been able to focus solely on this or that because I’d be missing out on other things. So to me, Christianity has to answer all the questions and not just one. If it can’t, why is it worth believing in?

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      • ‘There is value in the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas for understanding early second century Christianity, but they are not inspired books.’

        Actually many early Christians thought they were inspired by God. That’s why the Shepherd of Hermas & the Epistle of Barnabas are in the earliest complete Codex we have.

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      • Shepherd of Hermas is part of Codex Siniaticus, but not Didache. But even that may be just to save space and money, because they Codex materials were expensive. It (and epistle of Barnabas) may be part of “devotional reading” that does not imply believe in inspiration.

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      • Didache was accepted as scripture by many christians.

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      • who mentions it in the early church?
        It was not discovered until the late 1800s and it is difficult to know if some early church references are even about the same document.

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    • You really should not listen to christians about this matter! Christians are the last people whom you except to have the answer of your issue. Their model about this life and why we are here intensifies your issue instead of solving it.

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    • Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, and yet, also promised to be with us through the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. (John 14,1 5, 16, Matthew 28:18-20)

      He promised to come to us and have fellowship with us, if we open the door and He will have fellowship with us.

      Revelation 3:20
      Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

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  7. //God calls himself a loving father. He says this love is unconditional. That’s incongruent with a need to test one’s children. You don’t reward your kids with ice cream if they pass the test, but just because you love them. Don’t you blaze with anger when someone mistreats your own? Why does God seem to do nothing?//

    I just recall this verse in Qur’an
    “But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.”

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    • Calvinism holds the same theology, that God saves and forgives whomever He wishes and punishes whomever he wishes. It’s part of teachings about his sovereignty.

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      • Calvinism is not like Islam. Calvinism as I understand it is something called (Jabr ) in Islam.
        The point from that verse is to show you that you need to change your perspective about the relationship between us and God so that you can have a better understanding about this life and why we are here and subsequently that would remove this load on you.

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  8. Islam is Jabr = force, external coercion by fear and Sharia law; resulting in fatalism.

    As, Samuel Zwemer rightly pointed out, the lack of the love of God in the Fatherhood of God and incarnation and atonement and fellowship of the Holy Spirit (ie, no redemptive purpose for saving sinners – no redemption) – has resulted in Jabr, and fatalism.

    “In Islam, there is no fatherhood of God and no purpose of redemption to soften the doctrine of the decrees.” Samuel Zwemer, The Moslem Doctrine of God, page 100. (see link to Zwemer’s book)

    https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/09/23/the-result-of-a-man-made-religion-with-no-love-no-atonement-no-concept-of-the-fatherhood-of-god/

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    • I’m not sure why you always confuse things, Ken. It’s obvious that you’re ignorant about Islam in this area as most christians. Shari’ah and how God’s law should be applied on this earth has nothing to do with this subject.
      Zwemer? Are you serious!? These writings are obsolete. It’s really just a mix of ignorance, lies, and worthless biased preachings.

      I’m not sure if you’re a Calvinist or not, but Calvinism is not like Islam. I think it’s based on Romans 9. Anyway, its a wrong belief.
      When you tell people that God created them then He regretted. And once we are born, we are under that wrath of God because of the sin we have nothing to do with, and that’s why women are punished by the pain of giving birth, and the only hope for us is to believe in a man who sacrificed himself on a cross naked, what would you expect from people in dealing with difficulties of this life? This’s darkness!

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    • I’m not sure why you always confuse things, Ken. It’s obvious that you’re ignorant about Islam in this area as most christians. Shari’ah and how God’s law should be applied on this earth has nothing to do with this subject.
      Zwemer? Are you serious!? These writings are obsolete. It’s really just a mix of ignorance, lies, and worthless biased preachings.

      I’m not sure if you’re a Calvinist or not, but Calvinism is not like Islam.
      When you tell people that God created them then He regretted. And once we are born, we are under that wrath of God because of the sin we have nothing to do with, and that’s why women are punished by the pain of giving birth, and the only hope for us is to believe in a man who sacrificed himself on a cross naked, what would you expect from people in dealing with difficulties of this life? This’s darkness!

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      • Zwemer lived with the Arab Muslims in Basra, Iraq, Bahrain, and Egypt for 40 years. His analysis is correct.

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      • He lived as a missionary. His writings are obsolete. lies remain lies.

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      • God was grieved over the sin of mankind. Genesis 6:5-6

        We sin because our nature is sinful – pride, arrogance, jealousies, lusts, selfishness, bitterness, hatred, sinful anger, etc.

        Mark 7:20-23

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      • preach baby preach!

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      • //We sin because our nature is sinful – pride, arrogance, jealousies, lusts, selfishness, bitterness, hatred, sinful anger, etc.//

        This is interesting! Let’s see how your religion is really a false religion, shall we?

        First of all your prophet Paul is telling us the reason of the sin, which is the following;
        “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet. But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies DEAD!”
        The law of God is a big problem for your prophet Paul!

        What is the solution? For that man, the solution is Jesus as you may read in verse 25 in the same chapter.

        How can we prove that the religion of Paul is false?
        The answer is so simple! The law is now abrogated by Jesus, so we should not expect from people who take this track to have a sinful nature! It’s supposed to be dead with Jesus on the cross!
        But we know this is not true, and christians continue to be sinners and have lust for sins, so the religion of Paul is simply false.
        The problem with Paul is that he had sever contradictory conception between the body and the soul. The body is something so degraded for him, and that’s why he didn’t appreciate the marriage. It’s not the standard choice of life for him and his teachings!

        In contrast, Islam provides a crystal clear view of who we are. We are not angels! The mistakes and sins happen, and that’s why the repentance occurs as well. Otherwise, there’s no meaning for the test of this life. Also, Islam provides a practical teachings which fit our nature and who we are. “Would He not know, He Who created? while He is the Subtle, the Acquainted?” QT

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      • You forgot Romans 7:12 – “So, the law is holy, righteous, and good.”

        There is nothing wrong with God’s law.
        But humans are unable to obey the law, that is the problem. Even when they obey the law pretty well in society, the roots of sin are still there. Matthew 5:21-30; Mark 7:20-23

        You cannot truly repent or believe in God unless God’s grace awakens your heart to the reality of your sinfulness and no hope without Christ and His atonement and the power of the resurrection and the Holy Spirit to give you a new heart and the power to obey God. Until then, you are lost, blind, dead in your sins. Ephesians 2:1-3

        Islam cannot solve man’s essential problem with it’s emphasis on eternal laws and societal obedience. There is too much hypocrisy in secret in Saudi Arabia and Iran and Taliban and other Muslim countries – the only answer is the Person and Work of Redemption in Christ, the true Al Masih, of the NT (the true Injeel).

        المسیح حقیقی

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      • //You forgot Romans 7:12 – “So, the law is holy, righteous, and good.”//
        No I didn’t, but you know that Paul used this gymnastic saying to justify the horrible statements he had made about the perfect law of God!
        It seems Paul was lying, and he knew he’s lying! He knew the consequence of his religion.
        Otherwise why did he ask the questions in verses 7 &13?

        If Paul asked me this question; ‘Did that which is good, then, bring death to me?’
        I would answer, that’s exactly what you said, mr Paul!
        ‘For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, AROUSED BY THE LAW, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.” In fact, in book of Hebrews, which has the breath of Paul, it reads clearly that the law itself is (faulty)!
        It’s a style you find in almost all his writings! The first of the chapter negates the ending!

        This view of Paul puts the justice of God in Jeopardy because that means God was punishing the children of Israel while they cannot keep the law in the first place!
        The solution for this clear defect in Paul’s theory is ‘easy!’ He just lied!
        “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood–to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”! But this’s not true! It’s just a mere lie!

        //You cannot truly repent or believe in God unless God’s grace awakens your heart to the reality of your sinfulness//
        Why do you think the law of God contradict His mercy and His Grace upon us? This barrier is just an illusion made by your prophet Paul. Have you read the very first Surah in Qur’an which muslims pray with at least 17 times daily? “Guide us to the straight path. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.” QT

        //Until then, you are lost, blind, dead in your sins//
        ؛And they say, “None will enter Heaven unless he is a Jew or a Christian.” These are their wishes. Say, “Produce your proof, if you are truthful. . In fact, whoever submits himself to God, and is a doer of good, will have his reward with his Lord—they have nothing to fear, nor shall they grieve.” QT.

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      • Romans 7:12 is not “a gymnastic statement”. The law of God exposes sin and stirs up rebellion in human beings, exiting more rebellion, hypocrisy, and frustration, until you realize you are a rotten rebellious sinner and you cannot save yourself by your “good” works, religious rituals, Pharisee attitude of looking down on other sinners, when you are a sinner yourself, and upon that realization and awakening, truly repent and trust Christ as your savior and Lord.
        The law of God excites sin and judges sin and condemns the sinner, frustrating them and drives people to trust in Christ. Galatians 3:24

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      • That’s Paul’s apostate theology.

        In contrast, see Psalm 119 on the Law.
        Very different.

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      • It is God the Father, Jesus the eternal Son, and the Holy Spirit’s theology, (the Trinity) since God inspired Paul to write that.
        In full agreement with Psalm 119

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      • LOLOL. Paul didn’t know any “trinity”. Neither did David. If you read Psalm 119 it says the opposite of Paul the apostate.

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      • the apostle Paul wrote:
        “May the love of God, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14) = Trinity. Agrees with eyewitness and disciple of Jesus, Matthew – Matthew 28:19
        Agrees with Peter, eyewitness and disciple of Jesus – I Peter 1:1-2 – “by the foreknowledge of God the Father, and by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, in order to obey Jesus Christ (the Son) and be sprinkled with His blood. (I John 1:5-10 – application of forgiveness of sins.

        No; the apostle Paul’s writings and Psalm 119 are both by the same Holy Spirit inspiring their writings.

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      • It’s a gymnastic saying! If the law of God leads only to death, how can be good?
        The book of Hebrews reads’If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace”
        it’ very clear!

        Moreover, Paul said “Now we know that the law is good, IF one uses it lawfully”
        Ok, but he forgot that no one can use it lawfully according to his theory. As a result, the law is not good!
        BTW, the next verse ( 1Tim1:9) is a also a lie by Paul.

        //until you realize you are a rotten rebellious sinner and you cannot save yourself by your “good” works//
        Then what’s the point from punishing people! They have no choice except to be rotten rebellious sinners unless you go with the lie of your prophet Paul when he said “… in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”, but you know it’s a lie.

        Why do you think the good deeds is contradictory to the God’s mercy & grace?
        “And We will have removed whatever is within their breasts of resentment, [while] flowing beneath them are rivers. And they will say, “Praise to Allah, who has guided us to this; and we would never have been guided if Allah had not guided us. Certainly the messengers of our Lord had come with the truth.” And they will be called, “This is Paradise, which you have been made to inherit for what you used to do.”QT

        What did David say in Psalm 18? That passage was too difficult for christian commentators to swallow!
        “The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me. For I have kept the ways of the LORD; I am not guilty of turning from my God. All his laws are before me; I have not turned away from his decrees.I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin. The LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight.”

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      • the fault is with humans as sinners, not the law itself. “for finding fault with them, . . . ” Hebrews 8:8

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      • And the fault with the law! Verse 7!

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      • No, the fault is with the human sinners who are unable to obey God’s law. verse 7 and 8 go together.

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      • God says it is easy to obey God’s Law.

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      • God said and demonstrated that it is impossible.
        Joshua 24:19
        Matthew 5:48
        Mark 10:27
        Romans 8:7
        John 8:43-47

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      • The logic simple in verse 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another., so there’s something wrong in that law!

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      • No, he clarifies in verse 8 that the problem with the first covenant is the covenant breakers – they were not able to obey God’s law because their hearts are sinful. From Adam and Eve onward, humans have demonstrated this over and over again.
        The only hope is Christ, Al Masih المسیح

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      • This’s your interpretation! Nothing more! There’s something wrong with the first one. Very clear! Paul said in Romans 8:3 ‘For what the Law was POWERLESS…”.

        //humans have demonstrated this over and over again.//
        Humans have been demonstrated that they are human beings over and over! Christians who accept Jesus don’t turn to be angels!
        Humans are created Humans, and God didn’t regret ever He had created them in this way!
        Why do you think God had given instructions in Deu or Ezk18 for ths sinners and what one has to do to be forgiven?
        Christians are stil the same people! Paul wished that christians had not involved in marriage relationship even, but he couldn’t have done anything.

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      • Romans 8:3-4
        You left out the rest of the verses and context – “the law, weak as it was through the flesh” = the weakness is in “the flesh” = human and human efforts of trying to clean up your life with the miracle power of God’s Spirit to change you. Only God can change you. (Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-10)

        You must be born again of God’s Spirit.

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      • Man, Paul was more than clear that the law is not good for our situation as humans. It’s powerless. We need to be free from it( Romans 7:6). It’s the law of sin. The sin is not known, but the law aroused it For apart from the law, sin lies DEAD! In fact, if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. The law leads to death only! Any gymnastic sayings for Paul would not change this horrible view about the perfect law of God.
        Finally, listen to the attitude of Jesus “Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and TEACHES others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever DOES them and TEACHES them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven”.

        In contrast, Paul saw the law as something which we need to be set free from. The horrible example of he gave in the beginning of Romans 7 is very telling!
        Man, Paul was more than clear that the law is not good for our situation as humans. It’s powerless. We need to be free from it. It’s the law of sin. The sin is not known, but the law aroused it for apart from the law, sin lies DEAD! In fact, if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. The law leads to death only! Any gymnastic sayings for Paul would not exempt him from the consequences of his horrible view about the perfect law of God.
        In contrast, listen to the attitude of Jesus “Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and TEACHES others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever DOES them and TEACHES them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven”.

        On the other hand, Paul saw the law as something that we need to be released from “But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law,” The horrible example he gave in the beginning of Romans 7 is very telling!

        At the end of the day, Paul put himself as a man who has more wisdom than God Himself! Not to mention that he put the justice of God in jeopardy, and he couldn’t do anything about this gross defect in his wild theory except by lie!
        And as for the subject, christians don’t give us an answer why they suffer although they are now (i.e. with christ) don’t live according to sin. The sin which causes all this suffer got died with Jesus. You are free now!, so why do you suffer? Didn’t Jesus pay everything on behalf of you?
        ‘But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.” QT.

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      • Sorry I left out a key word:
        without

        Romans 8:3-4
        You left out the rest of the verses and context – “the law, weak as it was through the flesh” = the weakness is in “the flesh” = human and human efforts of trying to clean up your life with out the miracle power of God’s Spirit to change you. Only God can change you. (Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-10)

        You must be born again of God’s Spirit.

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      • There is no contradiction between what I wrote and 1 Timothy 1:8-11 – “if one uses it lawfully = according to the law, = properly” = not for spiritual forgivenss with God or salvation from hell or for earning one’s way to God, etc. – for society and criminals – yes
        and for exposing sinful hearts and for growing in sanctification – yes.

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      • //not for spiritual forgivenss with God //
        But who are you to say that? ‘The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the SOUL’
        Even Jesus was very clear that the law must be kept in Matthew 5.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Yes, the law of the Lord is perfect and restores the soul – how? By driving us to Christ – Galatians 3:24
        Matthew 5:21-30 – God commands you to obey, of course; but you don’t have the power to overcome roots of lust and evil desire and hatred and sinful anger.
        The only answer is Christ Himself.

        Like

      • No! Who said that? Have you not read what David said Psalm 18?

        // but you don’t have the power to overcome roots of lust and evil desire and hatred and sinful anger//
        Seriously? Have you read about the christian history? Have you not read any comment for Sam here? What an irony!
        Moreover, This ((but)) has never been said by God! It’s the notion of your prophet Paul. That’s it!

        Liked by 2 people

      • That’s not what the psalm says. It is quite clear: the Law itself restores the soul.

        Like

      • Read all the way to the end, to see the point that the law of God points to the heart and the only way to have a heart change is God doing a miracle.

        The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul;
        The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
        8 The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
        The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
        9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever;
        The judgments of the Lord are true; they are righteous altogether.
        10 They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
        Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
        11 Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
        In keeping them there is great reward.
        12 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults.
        13 Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins;

        Let them not rule over me;
        Then I will be blameless,
        And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.
        14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
        Be acceptable in Your sight,
        O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer.

        Cry to God for a new heart.
        Ezekiel 36:26-27
        John 3:1-10
        Hebrews chapter 8

        only a new covenant heart (points to work of Christ in the cross and NT teachings) can help you obey God’s law.
        Matthew 5:21-30
        Mark 7:20-23

        Like

      • Also, you cannot separate Psalm 19 from the Mosaic law and all the laws that require sacrifice and blood atonement for forgiveness and propitiation (satisfaction of God’s wrath by blood sacrifice). All of that in Genesis 22, Exodus 12, Leviticus chapters 1-6, and 16-17 and Isaiah 53 points to the final and powerful sacrifice of Jesus Al Masih on the cross, and His resurrection from the dead proved the whole Bible is true. (OT and NT)

        Like

      • why do you never give the reference in the Qur’an so we can look it up faster? This one is from Surah 2:111-112

        Like

      • //Read all the way to the end, to see the point that the law of God points to the heart and the only way to have a heart change is God doing a miracle.//

        No! Psalm 19 is very consistent with the Qur’an and the Islamic view, which affirms that there’s no contradiction between the pure law of God and His commandments which restore the soul & enlighten the eyes in one hand, and the Mercy of God and His grace on the other hand.

        The problem is with you, Ken. Christians think unless we are free from the law of the sins which leads to death only, the Grace of God is out of work!

        When David says The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul;
        The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
        8 The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
        The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes, he is perfectly in the opposite of your religion which states “When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.”

        David himself had no problem to say “The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me. For I have kept the ways of the LORD; I am not guilty of turning from my God. All his laws are before me; I have not turned away from his decrees.I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin. The LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight”

        Like

  9. @ Evalyn

    Hi Evalyn. So I followed the comment thread here a bit and you said you lost your faith. If you don’t mind me asking what made you not believe in God anymore?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Nothing happened. I asked to hear his voice and heard only silence. I asked for some company and knew only solitude. I asked to be wanted or needed but was ignored, neglected, and abandoned. A decade worth of Sundays I never missed church. A decade of living in the doldrums.

      Like

      • @ Evalyn
        Hmmm…that’s an interesting answer. What exactly were you looking for or expecting to happen?

        Like

      • God proving his existence and love in some way, shape, or form apart from the nothing status quo.

        Like

      • @ Evalyn

        I’m having a hard time understanding your view. Were you expecting a light or voice to descend from the heavens? A dream? Was something bad happening and you wanted it fixed? Grandma to come back from the dead? An angel appears and gives you a piggyback ride?

        I’m trying to figure out how you wanted God to prove His existence to you.

        Like

      • I was looking for something in my life to change.

        Like

  10. @ Ken

    So God “grieved” over mankind’s sin huh? Why? Didn’t know we would sin when He created us?

    Also, this kafir Zwemer has no knowledge of what he speaks. Just because we don’t call God “daddy” doesn’t mean we don’t have a loving relationship. For example, there is Al Wadood (The Loving One or the One forever full of love) Al Haleem (The Forbearing. Also like an extreme form of understanding and patience) Ar Rahman and Raheem (both derived from the womb because like how a mother takes care of the fetus without it’s knowledge so doe God) and potentially the name Allah itself might be derived from love.

    So no this kafir’s analysis isn’t correct and this is what everyone is talking about with your lack of understanding the basics to Islam.

    Liked by 2 people

    • The main point about God grieving over sin is demonstrating that God does not approve of sin, is not the author of sin, and has no fellowship with sin.

      Of course God knows everything before it takes place; God ordains (decides beforehand what will happen, but in relation to sin, God is not the author of sin, but decides beforehand to allow it to happen – the sinner and the devil do the sin, but God actively allowed the sin to happen and knew beforehand.)

      That God was grieved over the sin of mankind (Genesis 6:5-6) teaches us that God is holy and disapproves of sin and injustice, even though God has foreknowledge, and ordains it, and allowed it to happen.

      Both the Westminster Confession of Faith and the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith state:
      Below is the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith updated in modern English:

      Chapter 3 – God’s Decree
      1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.1 He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.2 This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree.3 In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree.4

      1 Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18.
      2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5. [I would add Titus 1:2 – “God, who cannot lie”; and Hab. 1:13]
      3 Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11.
      4 Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3–5.

      Like

    • I have discussed over the years with Arabic speaking friends the difference between Al Wadood الودود vs. Mohabat, Mohabah. محته ، محبت (It is in the article)

      Mohabah / Mohabat is much deeper and more equivalent to the Greek term agape love. αγαπη

      Wadood is more like “friendly, congenial”.

      As I recall, even Paul Williams admitted on one of his older blogs that he later deleted, that Islam does not teach “God is Love”. (His nature is love.)

      And many Muslim theologians have said the same thing, that one cannot say “Allah is ——— (by nature, substance)”, they can only describe attributes and names of Allah, not His essence / substance/ nature (ذات، جوهر ) (Zhat, Johar)

      Like

      • @ Ken

        To begin wadood is not “Friendly, congenial”. What your saying doesn’t even make sense in the context of the ayat it’s used in. Muhabbah is general and can contain a sexual or romantic conectation so that’s one reason it’s not appropriate. Wudd is a nurturing love that a mother has for a child and has no romantic or sexual meaning.

        (start @ 00:38 he even addresses whatever no-name kafir you quoted just said)

        So again let’s both not use grammar we don’t understand.

        Next, you have no proof of the prophets ever saying “nature, essence” or whatever crap some Greeks made up. The names and attributes give us an understanding of who God is and that is enough as that is what He chose to reveal about Himself to us. The issue of saying God is “love” is not that He lacks it but it’s inappropriate to say He is this thing itself.

        Like

      • Arabic speakers have told me that Wudood is more like “friendly”; and that the real word for romantic love and passion between a man and woman is Eshq / esheq عشق
        But, I understand that Mohabbat / Muhabbah can also have romance and married love connotations. Habbibbi (to male) and Habibti (to female).

        Like

      • The issue of saying God is “love” is not that He lacks it but it’s inappropriate to say He is this thing itself.

        Why?

        Like

  11. @ Evalyn

    Ahhh… now I get it. Whelp Evalyn I have to shotgun points as idk the situation in its entirety. Even though I would like you to watch the whole series on prayer (dua in Arabic) just check out this small clip for me as its a similar situation to what you have described to me:

    May God guide you to Islam.

    Like

  12. @ Ken

    While not your fault because you asked, the “Arabic speaker” clearly didn’t know what they were talking about as demonstrated from the video. If I was to use the same methodology, I have heard a Christian tell me God and the Devil are brothers who are fighting one another. Obviously, this isn’t correct. Wadood is a branch of love that is shown through the actions. And we haven’t even brought up the fact that the definitive article is in there yet. Sufficient to say, God loves the believers and inspires it.

    As for God is love let me not speak in ignorance or make an assumption. What is your intended meaning when you say God is love?

    Like

    • @ Ken
      As a final note because I didn’t see your post.

      God does not say His laws are difficult to keep He says the opposite actually. Iran, Saudi, etc are by consensus not considered 100% Islamic. They pick and choose parts and disregard the rest. These people were brought in through colonial powers not what the people want. So using them as an example is strange to say the least.

      As Abdullah noted, you claim to have gotten rid of the root of sin by believing in Jesus(as) etc. but…

      YOU STILL SIN. So that is not a true statement as “believing in Jesus” did not affect anything.

      Like

      • God does not say His laws are difficult to keep He says the opposite actually. Iran, Saudi, etc are by consensus not considered 100% Islamic. They pick and choose parts and disregard the rest. These people were brought in through colonial powers not what the people want. So using them as an example is strange to say the least.

        I have a little time for one more comment.

        One thing about Iran and Saudi Arabia is that they are definitely NOT something that was brought about by colonial powers. The British helped the Arabs (Lawerence of Arabia, etc.), true,, but the Arabs WANTED to throw off the Islamic colonial power of that day – the Ottoman Turks. (A Muslim colonial power)

        Iran’s 1979 Revolution was a throwing off the “colonial power” (the USA).

        So, those 2 examples are the exact opposite of what you said.

        All through the years of my experience with Iranians – even those that don’t like what the Khomeini regime became, they were all mostly proud of what they did, because it was something that they owned and did on their own; not the British controlling them (from the early 1900s Reza Shah’s regime until Mossadeq in 1951-1953) and not the USA (Mohammad Shah – 1952/1953 – 1979). Throwing off the USA influence in 1979 was the result and reaction to the CIA led coup of 1952-1953 against Mossadeq in Iran.

        The Persians threw off the colonial powers of the Arabs and the Ottoman Turks in the 1500s, when the Savafid Shahs decided they wanted to be different than the Sunni Arabs and Turks and the Shah proclaimed the whole nation a Shiite nation, adopting 12er Shiism from the southern Arabs in today’s Iraq.

        What examples of 100 % Islamic Sharia law is there today?

        Taliban areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan ?

        Hamas in Gaza ?

        Boko Haram in Nigeria, etc. ?

        Al Qaedah hiding in mountains and other places all over?

        Those that support Isis ?

        The only hope for all the chaos (for both wars and chaos in Muslim countries AND also the secular leftist cultural Marxism / homosexual / abortion / paganism / atheism / adultery / Evolutionary Darwinian Naturalistic atheists – agnostics – skeptics of the West

        is

        repentance and faith in Christ, the true Al Masih and being born again by a miracle of God in giving a new heart.

        The “Christian” (nominal and compromised with liberal scholarship, etc.) west also has to repent and get back to true spiritual reality.

        Mark 1:15
        Luke 13:1-5
        John 3:1-10
        Ezekiel 36:26-27

        Like

    • More than one Arabic speaking person told me this about the differences between

      Al Wadood الودود

      and

      Mohabbah / Mohabbat / Hubb محبت / محبه / حب

      and Eshq عشق

      “God is love” is deep and incorporates all the teaching of all the OT and NT about God and His eternal Son Jesus Al Masih and the Holy Spirit – the Holy Trinity – that God is relationship, spiritual relationship; and He has a close spiritual relationship with His own people (the elect from all nations- Revelation 5:9; 7:9) – I John 4:7-10 –

      You cannot understand God’s love without being converted by the Holy Spirit and without submission to God’s gospel – the understanding of your sinfulness and repenting from that and turning to the Messiah of the NT and His atoning death on the cross and His powerful resurrection from the dead, which proved that Jesus was God in the flesh (John 20:28; 1:1-5; 1:14) and that all of His words are true in all the gospels and all the NT through His apostles and those that helped them write the NT books.

      7 “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

      8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

      9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

      10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation [ atonement-sacrifice- satisfaction of God’s justice / wrath against our sins] for our sins.

      1 John 4:7-10

      Romans 5:1-11
      Christ died for sinners, ungodly, enemies. The only way to know God’s love is a miracle that He has to do in your heart (Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-10), and that only happens if one shows the proof of that by repentance and faith in Christ (and all that He is) and His death and resurrection. (Romans 3:9-28)

      You will never understand God’s love with the cross – the eternal sacrifice, the final qurban قربان / zebh ذبح – the ransom فدا . فدیه

      Like

      • That’s all I have time for, for as you know, this weekend is the celebration of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ / Al Masih from the dead.

        I sincerely hope and wish and pray for all the Muslims here who read and see our discussions that you will read through the New Testament all the way through in large chunks with context and paragraphs and chapters and seeing the whole books as one unit; and the NT as one unified mind of God in writing to us; and stop just picking out verses from Islamic websites and stop relying upon unbelieving / liberal scholarship arguments against the text.

        Dr. White has a great video on some of that. “What scholars ignore”

        Like

      • //Mohabbah / Mohabbat / Hubb محبت / محبه / حب//

        This is wrong Arabic. It’s M(a)habbh/t.

        I don’t think the argument that because your god is love, that means he’s the true god! I think dr Ally schooled dr Craig about this very point about this subject, especially in light of this verse in Pslams “The LORD examines both the righteous and the wicked. He hates those who love violence. ”

        Al-Wodd is definitely love in Arabic. Al-Wadood= The loving one.

        I think you may find the same root in Hebrew. For example the name (David) is From the Hebrew name דָּוִד (Dawid), which was derived from Hebrew דּוֹד (dod) meaning “beloved” .

        The story of Abraham and his son has been answered. You just cannot play with Qur’an as you did with the hebrew bible.

        Like

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