134 replies

  1. Cannot is more comforting than a deity that will not. Hence the number of Auschwitz survivors that lost their faith.

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  2. Dear Mr Williams

    I fear that the Serpent has slithered its way into the heart of Evalyn. The devil is currently enjoying a brisk trade in souls.
    Our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos Mary, pray to God for us !

    God Love you

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  3. Evalyn, what is the problem with injustice in the world and the belief in God. If this was paradise and there was injustice in paradise, then I can totally understand one having one’s faith challenged.

    But this is obviously not paradise. This is earth….hello, this is earth.

    And earth is a place of testing.

    Do you expect anything else other than challenges, difficulties, hardships in a test.

    Obviously, God will test us before He judges some to be punished and some to receive a generous reward.

    It boggles my mind why the “problem of evil” bothers people.

    There is no problem.

    In fact, if we were on this earth and there were no difficulties, then THAT could be a problem with the belief in God.

    This is because we should expect that God, the One who is absolutely just by definition would test us before putting some of us in hell and some in heaven.

    Evalyn, with love and care, I ask you to wake up before you see yourself in a place you wish you were not in, somewhere that in comparison this earth would be immeasurably better.

    Let us not be stubborn but let us let our hearts receive the connection of God before we fall into the irrational occupation with the absurd idea that we expect a test to not be a test but to be a paradise!

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    • God calls himself a loving father. He says this love is unconditional. That’s incongruent with a need to test one’s children. You don’t reward your kids with ice cream if they pass the test, but just because you love them. Don’t you blaze with anger when someone mistreats your own? Why does God seem to do nothing?

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  4. Some Holocaust survivors kept their faith in God and also even, subconsciously called their own suffering, “A Calvary” (the Latin word for the hill that Jesus was crucified on – Golgotha)

    See Elie Wiesel’s words (one of the most famous Holocaust survivors) and the hope that John Piper offers in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-passion-of-jesus-christ-and-the-passion-of-auschwitz
    At one point—and only one—Wiesel links Calvary and the camps. He tells of an old Rabbi, Akiba Dumer.

    Akiba Dumer left us, a victim of the selection. Lately, he had wandered among us, his eyes glazed, telling everyone of his weakness: “I can’t go on . . . It’s all over . . .” It was impossible to raise his morale. He didn’t listen to what we told him. He could only repeat that all was over for him. . . . Suddenly his eyes would become blank, nothing but two open wounds, two pits of terror. (Elie Wiesel, Night [New York: Bantam Books, 1982, orig. 1960], p. 72)

    Then Wiesel makes this provocative comment: “Poor Akiba Dumer, if he could have gone on believing in God, if he could have seen a proof of God in this Calvary, he would not have been taken by the selection” (p. 73). I will not presume to put any words in Elie Wiesel’s mouth. I am not sure what he meant. But it presses the question: Why the link between Calvary and the concentration camp?

    I am not thinking here of cause or blame. I am thinking of hope. Is there a way that Jewish suffering may find, not its cause, but its final meaning in the suffering of Jesus Christ? Is it possible to think, not of Christ’s passion leading to Auschwitz, but of Auschwitz leading to an understanding of Christ’s passion? Is the link between Calvary and the camps a link of unfathomable empathy? Perhaps only Jesus in the end can know what happened during the “one long night” (p. 32) of Jewish suffering. And perhaps a generation of Jewish people, whose grandparents endured their own noxious crucifixion, will be able to, as no others, to grasp what happened to the Son of God at Calvary.

    I leave it as a question. I do not know.

    But this I know: those ostensible Christians who built the camps never knew the love that moved Jesus Christ toward Calvary. They never knew the Christ, who instead of killing to save a culture, died to save the world. But there are some Christians—the true Christians—who have seen the meaning of the passion of Jesus Christ, and have been broken and humbled and silenced by his suffering. Could it be that these, perhaps better than many, might be able to see, and at least begin to fathom, the suffering of Jewish people in the Holocaust?

    (This is an excerpt from the book Fifty Reasons Why Jesus Came to Die.)

    I recommend John Piper’s book, Fifty Reasons Why Jesus came to Die.

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  5. “For whatever reason God chose to make man as he is – limited and suffering and subject to sorrows and death – He had the honesty and the courage to take His own medicine. Whatever game He is playing with His creation, He has kept His own rules and played fair. He can exact nothing from man that He has not exacted from Himself. He has Himself gone through the whole of human experience, from the trivial irritations of family life and the cramping restrictions of hard work and lack of money to the worst horrors of pain and humiliation and defeat, despair and death. When He was a man, He played the man. He was born in poverty and died in disgrace and thought it well worth while.”
    (Dorothy Sayers, Creed or Chaos? New York: Harcourt, Brace and Col, 149, p. 4; cited in Josh McDowell and Don Stewart, Answers to Tough Questions. Here’s Life Publishers, 1980, p. 153-154.

    My Iranian friend Kamyar, who was my second Farsi teacher in 1994, said this to me:

    “The two most amazing things about Christianity are:
    1. That God, who we were taught in Islam, was far off and aloof, became a man like us, clothed Himself in flesh.”
    and
    2. That there is a way to be saved from sin and know it and have assurance of it.
    “دو چیز خیلی عالی است در مسیحیت
    1. که خدا، که ما در اسلام تعلیم یافتیم که خیلی دور از ما می ماند، انسان شد مثل ما شد، و خود را جسم پوشید،
    و 2. که یک راهی را وجود دارد برای نجات از گناه و می توانیم آن راه را بدانیم، و اطمینان داشته باشیم
    .

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    • @ Ken

      Your kafir friend is an idiot:

      1. In the OT God is “far off” and this argument makes no logical sense. God can still be close to Creation without physically being there. Which is why this doesn’t answer Evalyn’s contention. Saying “He left us His books” refutes Kamyar’s dump point about God “became close to us”.

      2. You have no assurance whatsoever. Do you have a contract with God saying you and Kamyar are going to heaven? Didn’t think so. It is the most arrogant thing on planet Earth to say you have “assurance of heaven”

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      • Even the OT is much richer and demonstrates the love and compassion of God much more than the external Sharia-law of the Al Jabbar tyrant, Allah, of Islam.

        Yes, we have assurance of heaven, eternal life. There are many verses on God’s promise of His forgiveness and eternal life in the NT. Promises given by the Living God 600 years before your late man-made religion.
        John 5:24
        John 3:16
        Acts 16:31
        Romans 10:9-10
        1 John 5:12-14
        John 11:25
        Revelation 20, 21, 22
        Colossians 1:5
        1 Peter 1:3-5

        It is Islam that is Jabr جبر (force, leading to fatalism), coming from the Al Jabbar (the one who forces). (Because of the lack of love in God, incarnation, atonement, the power of the Holy Spirit, improper understanding of the sinfulness of mankind.)

        You have no:
        1. love of God. “God is love” – 1 John 4:8
        2. Fatherhood of God
        3. Incarnation
        4. Atonement
        5. Power of the Holy Spirit to obey the laws of Islam – the external fear and force of Sharia forces many Muslims to be hypocrites privately and secretly and it does not deal with the roots of sin. (Matthew 5:21-30; Mark 7:20-23; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9)

        Therefore, you have no peace or assurance, because Islam denies all the major doctrines and truths that accomplish these things.

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  6. But God isn’t among us right now. We can’t sit face to face over a frappucino and discuss toxic theology.

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    • That is why He left us with His written word. (OT and NT)

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      • And the apocrypha and the expanded Ethiopian canon.

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      • Philo, Josephus, and the Jews agreed that the last books of the OT were Esther, Nehemiah, Malachi, Chronicles – same OT canon as TaNakH and Protestant canon.
        Jerome agreed.
        Jesus taught it also. Luke 24:44; Luke 11:51
        Josephus, Against Apion, 1:8, agrees with Protestant understanding of the canon of the OT.

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      • The Acts of Paul and Thecla is a rousing read. Almost as good as the Shepherd of Hermas or the Didache. I really need to read all the ancient writings just in case God speaks through them in a similar way as Narnia or LotR.

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      • Those works are not inspired. There is value in the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas for understanding early second century Christianity, but they are not inspired books. Other early church writers provide evidence that the Acts of Paul and Telca was a forged/apocryphal document.
        Seems like you just throw stuff out on different issues to avoid the clear things like the Love of God, the Fatherhood of God, the incarnation and atonement, etc. – the main things that help our faith – you said something like your faith faded or is no longer there. Why the constant “but, look over here at this other issue?” (at the same avoiding all the clear encouraging stuff about God’s love in Jesus Christ?)

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      • I’ve always been the sort who understands many aspects of a thing, I’ve never been able to focus solely on this or that because I’d be missing out on other things. So to me, Christianity has to answer all the questions and not just one. If it can’t, why is it worth believing in?

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      • ‘There is value in the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas for understanding early second century Christianity, but they are not inspired books.’

        Actually many early Christians thought they were inspired by God. That’s why the Shepherd of Hermas & the Epistle of Barnabas are in the earliest complete Codex we have.

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      • Shepherd of Hermas is part of Codex Siniaticus, but not Didache. But even that may be just to save space and money, because they Codex materials were expensive. It (and epistle of Barnabas) may be part of “devotional reading” that does not imply believe in inspiration.

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      • Didache was accepted as scripture by many christians.

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      • who mentions it in the early church?
        It was not discovered until the late 1800s and it is difficult to know if some early church references are even about the same document.

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    • You really should not listen to christians about this matter! Christians are the last people whom you except to have the answer of your issue. Their model about this life and why we are here intensifies your issue instead of solving it.

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    • Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, and yet, also promised to be with us through the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. (John 14,1 5, 16, Matthew 28:18-20)

      He promised to come to us and have fellowship with us, if we open the door and He will have fellowship with us.

      Revelation 3:20
      Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

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  7. //God calls himself a loving father. He says this love is unconditional. That’s incongruent with a need to test one’s children. You don’t reward your kids with ice cream if they pass the test, but just because you love them. Don’t you blaze with anger when someone mistreats your own? Why does God seem to do nothing?//

    I just recall this verse in Qur’an
    “But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.”

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    • Calvinism holds the same theology, that God saves and forgives whomever He wishes and punishes whomever he wishes. It’s part of teachings about his sovereignty.

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      • Calvinism is not like Islam. Calvinism as I understand it is something called (Jabr ) in Islam.
        The point from that verse is to show you that you need to change your perspective about the relationship between us and God so that you can have a better understanding about this life and why we are here and subsequently that would remove this load on you.

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  8. Islam is Jabr = force, external coercion by fear and Sharia law; resulting in fatalism.

    As, Samuel Zwemer rightly pointed out, the lack of the love of God in the Fatherhood of God and incarnation and atonement and fellowship of the Holy Spirit (ie, no redemptive purpose for saving sinners – no redemption) – has resulted in Jabr, and fatalism.

    “In Islam, there is no fatherhood of God and no purpose of redemption to soften the doctrine of the decrees.” Samuel Zwemer, The Moslem Doctrine of God, page 100. (see link to Zwemer’s book)

    https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/09/23/the-result-of-a-man-made-religion-with-no-love-no-atonement-no-concept-of-the-fatherhood-of-god/

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    • I’m not sure why you always confuse things, Ken. It’s obvious that you’re ignorant about Islam in this area as most christians. Shari’ah and how God’s law should be applied on this earth has nothing to do with this subject.
      Zwemer? Are you serious!? These writings are obsolete. It’s really just a mix of ignorance, lies, and worthless biased preachings.

      I’m not sure if you’re a Calvinist or not, but Calvinism is not like Islam. I think it’s based on Romans 9. Anyway, its a wrong belief.
      When you tell people that God created them then He regretted. And once we are born, we are under that wrath of God because of the sin we have nothing to do with, and that’s why women are punished by the pain of giving birth, and the only hope for us is to believe in a man who sacrificed himself on a cross naked, what would you expect from people in dealing with difficulties of this life? This’s darkness!

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    • I’m not sure why you always confuse things, Ken. It’s obvious that you’re ignorant about Islam in this area as most christians. Shari’ah and how God’s law should be applied on this earth has nothing to do with this subject.
      Zwemer? Are you serious!? These writings are obsolete. It’s really just a mix of ignorance, lies, and worthless biased preachings.

      I’m not sure if you’re a Calvinist or not, but Calvinism is not like Islam.
      When you tell people that God created them then He regretted. And once we are born, we are under that wrath of God because of the sin we have nothing to do with, and that’s why women are punished by the pain of giving birth, and the only hope for us is to believe in a man who sacrificed himself on a cross naked, what would you expect from people in dealing with difficulties of this life? This’s darkness!

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      • Zwemer lived with the Arab Muslims in Basra, Iraq, Bahrain, and Egypt for 40 years. His analysis is correct.

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      • He lived as a missionary. His writings are obsolete. lies remain lies.

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      • God was grieved over the sin of mankind. Genesis 6:5-6

        We sin because our nature is sinful – pride, arrogance, jealousies, lusts, selfishness, bitterness, hatred, sinful anger, etc.

        Mark 7:20-23

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      • preach baby preach!

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      • //We sin because our nature is sinful – pride, arrogance, jealousies, lusts, selfishness, bitterness, hatred, sinful anger, etc.//

        This is interesting! Let’s see how your religion is really a false religion, shall we?

        First of all your prophet Paul is telling us the reason of the sin, which is the following;
        “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet. But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies DEAD!”
        The law of God is a big problem for your prophet Paul!

        What is the solution? For that man, the solution is Jesus as you may read in verse 25 in the same chapter.

        How can we prove that the religion of Paul is false?
        The answer is so simple! The law is now abrogated by Jesus, so we should not expect from people who take this track to have a sinful nature! It’s supposed to be dead with Jesus on the cross!
        But we know this is not true, and christians continue to be sinners and have lust for sins, so the religion of Paul is simply false.
        The problem with Paul is that he had sever contradictory conception between the body and the soul. The body is something so degraded for him, and that’s why he didn’t appreciate the marriage. It’s not the standard choice of life for him and his teachings!

        In contrast, Islam provides a crystal clear view of who we are. We are not angels! The mistakes and sins happen, and that’s why the repentance occurs as well. Otherwise, there’s no meaning for the test of this life. Also, Islam provides a practical teachings which fit our nature and who we are. “Would He not know, He Who created? while He is the Subtle, the Acquainted?” QT

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      • You forgot Romans 7:12 – “So, the law is holy, righteous, and good.”

        There is nothing wrong with God’s law.
        But humans are unable to obey the law, that is the problem. Even when they obey the law pretty well in society, the roots of sin are still there. Matthew 5:21-30; Mark 7:20-23

        You cannot truly repent or believe in God unless God’s grace awakens your heart to the reality of your sinfulness and no hope without Christ and His atonement and the power of the resurrection and the Holy Spirit to give you a new heart and the power to obey God. Until then, you are lost, blind, dead in your sins. Ephesians 2:1-3

        Islam cannot solve man’s essential problem with it’s emphasis on eternal laws and societal obedience. There is too much hypocrisy in secret in Saudi Arabia and Iran and Taliban and other Muslim countries – the only answer is the Person and Work of Redemption in Christ, the true Al Masih, of the NT (the true Injeel).

        المسیح حقیقی

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      • //You forgot Romans 7:12 – “So, the law is holy, righteous, and good.”//
        No I didn’t, but you know that Paul used this gymnastic saying to justify the horrible statements he had made about the perfect law of God!
        It seems Paul was lying, and he knew he’s lying! He knew the consequence of his religion.
        Otherwise why did he ask the questions in verses 7 &13?

        If Paul asked me this question; ‘Did that which is good, then, bring death to me?’
        I would answer, that’s exactly what you said, mr Paul!
        ‘For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, AROUSED BY THE LAW, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.” In fact, in book of Hebrews, which has the breath of Paul, it reads clearly that the law itself is (faulty)!
        It’s a style you find in almost all his writings! The first of the chapter negates the ending!

        This view of Paul puts the justice of God in Jeopardy because that means God was punishing the children of Israel while they cannot keep the law in the first place!
        The solution for this clear defect in Paul’s theory is ‘easy!’ He just lied!
        “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood–to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”! But this’s not true! It’s just a mere lie!

        //You cannot truly repent or believe in God unless God’s grace awakens your heart to the reality of your sinfulness//
        Why do you think the law of God contradict His mercy and His Grace upon us? This barrier is just an illusion made by your prophet Paul. Have you read the very first Surah in Qur’an which muslims pray with at least 17 times daily? “Guide us to the straight path. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.” QT

        //Until then, you are lost, blind, dead in your sins//
        ؛And they say, “None will enter Heaven unless he is a Jew or a Christian.” These are their wishes. Say, “Produce your proof, if you are truthful. . In fact, whoever submits himself to God, and is a doer of good, will have his reward with his Lord—they have nothing to fear, nor shall they grieve.” QT.

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      • Romans 7:12 is not “a gymnastic statement”. The law of God exposes sin and stirs up rebellion in human beings, exiting more rebellion, hypocrisy, and frustration, until you realize you are a rotten rebellious sinner and you cannot save yourself by your “good” works, religious rituals, Pharisee attitude of looking down on other sinners, when you are a sinner yourself, and upon that realization and awakening, truly repent and trust Christ as your savior and Lord.
        The law of God excites sin and judges sin and condemns the sinner, frustrating them and drives people to trust in Christ. Galatians 3:24

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      • That’s Paul’s apostate theology.

        In contrast, see Psalm 119 on the Law.
        Very different.

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      • It is God the Father, Jesus the eternal Son, and the Holy Spirit’s theology, (the Trinity) since God inspired Paul to write that.
        In full agreement with Psalm 119

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      • LOLOL. Paul didn’t know any “trinity”. Neither did David. If you read Psalm 119 it says the opposite of Paul the apostate.

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      • the apostle Paul wrote:
        “May the love of God, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14) = Trinity. Agrees with eyewitness and disciple of Jesus, Matthew – Matthew 28:19
        Agrees with Peter, eyewitness and disciple of Jesus – I Peter 1:1-2 – “by the foreknowledge of God the Father, and by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, in order to obey Jesus Christ (the Son) and be sprinkled with His blood. (I John 1:5-10 – application of forgiveness of sins.

        No; the apostle Paul’s writings and Psalm 119 are both by the same Holy Spirit inspiring their writings.

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      • It’s a gymnastic saying! If the law of God leads only to death, how can be good?
        The book of Hebrews reads’If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace”
        it’ very clear!

        Moreover, Paul said “Now we know that the law is good, IF one uses it lawfully”
        Ok, but he forgot that no one can use it lawfully according to his theory. As a result, the law is not good!
        BTW, the next verse ( 1Tim1:9) is a also a lie by Paul.

        //until you realize you are a rotten rebellious sinner and you cannot save yourself by your “good” works//
        Then what’s the point from punishing people! They have no choice except to be rotten rebellious sinners unless you go with the lie of your prophet Paul when he said “… in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”, but you know it’s a lie.

        Why do you think the good deeds is contradictory to the God’s mercy & grace?
        “And We will have removed whatever is within their breasts of resentment, [while] flowing beneath them are rivers. And they will say, “Praise to Allah, who has guided us to this; and we would never have been guided if Allah had not guided us. Certainly the messengers of our Lord had come with the truth.” And they will be called, “This is Paradise, which you have been made to inherit for what you used to do.”QT

        What did David say in Psalm 18? That passage was too difficult for christian commentators to swallow!
        “The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me. For I have kept the ways of the LORD; I am not guilty of turning from my God. All his laws are before me; I have not turned away from his decrees.I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin. The LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight.”

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      • the fault is with humans as sinners, not the law itself. “for finding fault with them, . . . ” Hebrews 8:8

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      • And the fault with the law! Verse 7!

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      • No, the fault is with the human sinners who are unable to obey God’s law. verse 7 and 8 go together.

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      • God says it is easy to obey God’s Law.

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      • God said and demonstrated that it is impossible.
        Joshua 24:19
        Matthew 5:48
        Mark 10:27
        Romans 8:7
        John 8:43-47

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      • The logic simple in verse 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another., so there’s something wrong in that law!

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      • No, he clarifies in verse 8 that the problem with the first covenant is the covenant breakers – they were not able to obey God’s law because their hearts are sinful. From Adam and Eve onward, humans have demonstrated this over and over again.
        The only hope is Christ, Al Masih المسیح

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      • This’s your interpretation! Nothing more! There’s something wrong with the first one. Very clear! Paul said in Romans 8:3 ‘For what the Law was POWERLESS…”.

        //humans have demonstrated this over and over again.//
        Humans have been demonstrated that they are human beings over and over! Christians who accept Jesus don’t turn to be angels!
        Humans are created Humans, and God didn’t regret ever He had created them in this way!
        Why do you think God had given instructions in Deu or Ezk18 for ths sinners and what one has to do to be forgiven?
        Christians are stil the same people! Paul wished that christians had not involved in marriage relationship even, but he couldn’t have done anything.

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      • Romans 8:3-4
        You left out the rest of the verses and context – “the law, weak as it was through the flesh” = the weakness is in “the flesh” = human and human efforts of trying to clean up your life with the miracle power of God’s Spirit to change you. Only God can change you. (Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-10)

        You must be born again of God’s Spirit.

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      • Man, Paul was more than clear that the law is not good for our situation as humans. It’s powerless. We need to be free from it( Romans 7:6). It’s the law of sin. The sin is not known, but the law aroused it For apart from the law, sin lies DEAD! In fact, if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. The law leads to death only! Any gymnastic sayings for Paul would not change this horrible view about the perfect law of God.
        Finally, listen to the attitude of Jesus “Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and TEACHES others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever DOES them and TEACHES them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven”.

        In contrast, Paul saw the law as something which we need to be set free from. The horrible example of he gave in the beginning of Romans 7 is very telling!
        Man, Paul was more than clear that the law is not good for our situation as humans. It’s powerless. We need to be free from it. It’s the law of sin. The sin is not known, but the law aroused it for apart from the law, sin lies DEAD! In fact, if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. The law leads to death only! Any gymnastic sayings for Paul would not exempt him from the consequences of his horrible view about the perfect law of God.
        In contrast, listen to the attitude of Jesus “Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and TEACHES others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever DOES them and TEACHES them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven”.

        On the other hand, Paul saw the law as something that we need to be released from “But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law,” The horrible example he gave in the beginning of Romans 7 is very telling!

        At the end of the day, Paul put himself as a man who has more wisdom than God Himself! Not to mention that he put the justice of God in jeopardy, and he couldn’t do anything about this gross defect in his wild theory except by lie!
        And as for the subject, christians don’t give us an answer why they suffer although they are now (i.e. with christ) don’t live according to sin. The sin which causes all this suffer got died with Jesus. You are free now!, so why do you suffer? Didn’t Jesus pay everything on behalf of you?
        ‘But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.” QT.

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      • Sorry I left out a key word:
        without

        Romans 8:3-4
        You left out the rest of the verses and context – “the law, weak as it was through the flesh” = the weakness is in “the flesh” = human and human efforts of trying to clean up your life with out the miracle power of God’s Spirit to change you. Only God can change you. (Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-10)

        You must be born again of God’s Spirit.

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      • There is no contradiction between what I wrote and 1 Timothy 1:8-11 – “if one uses it lawfully = according to the law, = properly” = not for spiritual forgivenss with God or salvation from hell or for earning one’s way to God, etc. – for society and criminals – yes
        and for exposing sinful hearts and for growing in sanctification – yes.

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      • //not for spiritual forgivenss with God //
        But who are you to say that? ‘The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the SOUL’
        Even Jesus was very clear that the law must be kept in Matthew 5.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Yes, the law of the Lord is perfect and restores the soul – how? By driving us to Christ – Galatians 3:24
        Matthew 5:21-30 – God commands you to obey, of course; but you don’t have the power to overcome roots of lust and evil desire and hatred and sinful anger.
        The only answer is Christ Himself.

        Like

      • No! Who said that? Have you not read what David said Psalm 18?

        // but you don’t have the power to overcome roots of lust and evil desire and hatred and sinful anger//
        Seriously? Have you read about the christian history? Have you not read any comment for Sam here? What an irony!
        Moreover, This ((but)) has never been said by God! It’s the notion of your prophet Paul. That’s it!

        Liked by 2 people

      • That’s not what the psalm says. It is quite clear: the Law itself restores the soul.

        Like

      • Read all the way to the end, to see the point that the law of God points to the heart and the only way to have a heart change is God doing a miracle.

        The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul;
        The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
        8 The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
        The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
        9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever;
        The judgments of the Lord are true; they are righteous altogether.
        10 They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
        Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
        11 Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
        In keeping them there is great reward.
        12 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults.
        13 Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins;

        Let them not rule over me;
        Then I will be blameless,
        And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.
        14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
        Be acceptable in Your sight,
        O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer.

        Cry to God for a new heart.
        Ezekiel 36:26-27
        John 3:1-10
        Hebrews chapter 8

        only a new covenant heart (points to work of Christ in the cross and NT teachings) can help you obey God’s law.
        Matthew 5:21-30
        Mark 7:20-23

        Like

      • Also, you cannot separate Psalm 19 from the Mosaic law and all the laws that require sacrifice and blood atonement for forgiveness and propitiation (satisfaction of God’s wrath by blood sacrifice). All of that in Genesis 22, Exodus 12, Leviticus chapters 1-6, and 16-17 and Isaiah 53 points to the final and powerful sacrifice of Jesus Al Masih on the cross, and His resurrection from the dead proved the whole Bible is true. (OT and NT)

        Like

      • why do you never give the reference in the Qur’an so we can look it up faster? This one is from Surah 2:111-112

        Like

      • //Read all the way to the end, to see the point that the law of God points to the heart and the only way to have a heart change is God doing a miracle.//

        No! Psalm 19 is very consistent with the Qur’an and the Islamic view, which affirms that there’s no contradiction between the pure law of God and His commandments which restore the soul & enlighten the eyes in one hand, and the Mercy of God and His grace on the other hand.

        The problem is with you, Ken. Christians think unless we are free from the law of the sins which leads to death only, the Grace of God is out of work!

        When David says The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul;
        The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
        8 The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
        The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes, he is perfectly in the opposite of your religion which states “When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.”

        David himself had no problem to say “The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me. For I have kept the ways of the LORD; I am not guilty of turning from my God. All his laws are before me; I have not turned away from his decrees.I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin. The LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his sight”

        Like

  9. @ Evalyn

    Hi Evalyn. So I followed the comment thread here a bit and you said you lost your faith. If you don’t mind me asking what made you not believe in God anymore?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Nothing happened. I asked to hear his voice and heard only silence. I asked for some company and knew only solitude. I asked to be wanted or needed but was ignored, neglected, and abandoned. A decade worth of Sundays I never missed church. A decade of living in the doldrums.

      Like

      • @ Evalyn
        Hmmm…that’s an interesting answer. What exactly were you looking for or expecting to happen?

        Like

      • God proving his existence and love in some way, shape, or form apart from the nothing status quo.

        Like

      • @ Evalyn

        I’m having a hard time understanding your view. Were you expecting a light or voice to descend from the heavens? A dream? Was something bad happening and you wanted it fixed? Grandma to come back from the dead? An angel appears and gives you a piggyback ride?

        I’m trying to figure out how you wanted God to prove His existence to you.

        Like

      • I was looking for something in my life to change.

        Like

  10. @ Ken

    So God “grieved” over mankind’s sin huh? Why? Didn’t know we would sin when He created us?

    Also, this kafir Zwemer has no knowledge of what he speaks. Just because we don’t call God “daddy” doesn’t mean we don’t have a loving relationship. For example, there is Al Wadood (The Loving One or the One forever full of love) Al Haleem (The Forbearing. Also like an extreme form of understanding and patience) Ar Rahman and Raheem (both derived from the womb because like how a mother takes care of the fetus without it’s knowledge so doe God) and potentially the name Allah itself might be derived from love.

    So no this kafir’s analysis isn’t correct and this is what everyone is talking about with your lack of understanding the basics to Islam.

    Liked by 2 people

    • The main point about God grieving over sin is demonstrating that God does not approve of sin, is not the author of sin, and has no fellowship with sin.

      Of course God knows everything before it takes place; God ordains (decides beforehand what will happen, but in relation to sin, God is not the author of sin, but decides beforehand to allow it to happen – the sinner and the devil do the sin, but God actively allowed the sin to happen and knew beforehand.)

      That God was grieved over the sin of mankind (Genesis 6:5-6) teaches us that God is holy and disapproves of sin and injustice, even though God has foreknowledge, and ordains it, and allowed it to happen.

      Both the Westminster Confession of Faith and the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith state:
      Below is the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith updated in modern English:

      Chapter 3 – God’s Decree
      1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.1 He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin.2 This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree.3 In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree.4

      1 Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18.
      2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5. [I would add Titus 1:2 – “God, who cannot lie”; and Hab. 1:13]
      3 Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11.
      4 Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3–5.

      Like

    • I have discussed over the years with Arabic speaking friends the difference between Al Wadood الودود vs. Mohabat, Mohabah. محته ، محبت (It is in the article)

      Mohabah / Mohabat is much deeper and more equivalent to the Greek term agape love. αγαπη

      Wadood is more like “friendly, congenial”.

      As I recall, even Paul Williams admitted on one of his older blogs that he later deleted, that Islam does not teach “God is Love”. (His nature is love.)

      And many Muslim theologians have said the same thing, that one cannot say “Allah is ——— (by nature, substance)”, they can only describe attributes and names of Allah, not His essence / substance/ nature (ذات، جوهر ) (Zhat, Johar)

      Like

      • @ Ken

        To begin wadood is not “Friendly, congenial”. What your saying doesn’t even make sense in the context of the ayat it’s used in. Muhabbah is general and can contain a sexual or romantic conectation so that’s one reason it’s not appropriate. Wudd is a nurturing love that a mother has for a child and has no romantic or sexual meaning.

        (start @ 00:38 he even addresses whatever no-name kafir you quoted just said)

        So again let’s both not use grammar we don’t understand.

        Next, you have no proof of the prophets ever saying “nature, essence” or whatever crap some Greeks made up. The names and attributes give us an understanding of who God is and that is enough as that is what He chose to reveal about Himself to us. The issue of saying God is “love” is not that He lacks it but it’s inappropriate to say He is this thing itself.

        Like

      • Arabic speakers have told me that Wudood is more like “friendly”; and that the real word for romantic love and passion between a man and woman is Eshq / esheq عشق
        But, I understand that Mohabbat / Muhabbah can also have romance and married love connotations. Habbibbi (to male) and Habibti (to female).

        Like

      • The issue of saying God is “love” is not that He lacks it but it’s inappropriate to say He is this thing itself.

        Why?

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  11. @ Evalyn

    Ahhh… now I get it. Whelp Evalyn I have to shotgun points as idk the situation in its entirety. Even though I would like you to watch the whole series on prayer (dua in Arabic) just check out this small clip for me as its a similar situation to what you have described to me:

    May God guide you to Islam.

    Like

  12. @ Ken

    While not your fault because you asked, the “Arabic speaker” clearly didn’t know what they were talking about as demonstrated from the video. If I was to use the same methodology, I have heard a Christian tell me God and the Devil are brothers who are fighting one another. Obviously, this isn’t correct. Wadood is a branch of love that is shown through the actions. And we haven’t even brought up the fact that the definitive article is in there yet. Sufficient to say, God loves the believers and inspires it.

    As for God is love let me not speak in ignorance or make an assumption. What is your intended meaning when you say God is love?

    Like

    • @ Ken
      As a final note because I didn’t see your post.

      God does not say His laws are difficult to keep He says the opposite actually. Iran, Saudi, etc are by consensus not considered 100% Islamic. They pick and choose parts and disregard the rest. These people were brought in through colonial powers not what the people want. So using them as an example is strange to say the least.

      As Abdullah noted, you claim to have gotten rid of the root of sin by believing in Jesus(as) etc. but…

      YOU STILL SIN. So that is not a true statement as “believing in Jesus” did not affect anything.

      Like

      • God does not say His laws are difficult to keep He says the opposite actually. Iran, Saudi, etc are by consensus not considered 100% Islamic. They pick and choose parts and disregard the rest. These people were brought in through colonial powers not what the people want. So using them as an example is strange to say the least.

        I have a little time for one more comment.

        One thing about Iran and Saudi Arabia is that they are definitely NOT something that was brought about by colonial powers. The British helped the Arabs (Lawerence of Arabia, etc.), true,, but the Arabs WANTED to throw off the Islamic colonial power of that day – the Ottoman Turks. (A Muslim colonial power)

        Iran’s 1979 Revolution was a throwing off the “colonial power” (the USA).

        So, those 2 examples are the exact opposite of what you said.

        All through the years of my experience with Iranians – even those that don’t like what the Khomeini regime became, they were all mostly proud of what they did, because it was something that they owned and did on their own; not the British controlling them (from the early 1900s Reza Shah’s regime until Mossadeq in 1951-1953) and not the USA (Mohammad Shah – 1952/1953 – 1979). Throwing off the USA influence in 1979 was the result and reaction to the CIA led coup of 1952-1953 against Mossadeq in Iran.

        The Persians threw off the colonial powers of the Arabs and the Ottoman Turks in the 1500s, when the Savafid Shahs decided they wanted to be different than the Sunni Arabs and Turks and the Shah proclaimed the whole nation a Shiite nation, adopting 12er Shiism from the southern Arabs in today’s Iraq.

        What examples of 100 % Islamic Sharia law is there today?

        Taliban areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan ?

        Hamas in Gaza ?

        Boko Haram in Nigeria, etc. ?

        Al Qaedah hiding in mountains and other places all over?

        Those that support Isis ?

        The only hope for all the chaos (for both wars and chaos in Muslim countries AND also the secular leftist cultural Marxism / homosexual / abortion / paganism / atheism / adultery / Evolutionary Darwinian Naturalistic atheists – agnostics – skeptics of the West

        is

        repentance and faith in Christ, the true Al Masih and being born again by a miracle of God in giving a new heart.

        The “Christian” (nominal and compromised with liberal scholarship, etc.) west also has to repent and get back to true spiritual reality.

        Mark 1:15
        Luke 13:1-5
        John 3:1-10
        Ezekiel 36:26-27

        Like

      • Where did you get the idea that Christians never sin anymore?

        No where does the Bible teach that.

        “If we say we have no sin, we lie, and deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

        see 1 John 1:8-10

        verse 10, “if we say that we have not sinned, we accuse God of lying . . . ”

        But the gospel – the truth of Jesus Christ and all that is in the saving power of God by faith in Him, (if the heart is truly changed by being born again – Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-10) gives us the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ’s powerful atonement and resurrection that we can grow more and more in holiness, honesty, and the power to choose good over evil – never perfect, but increasing in levels of sanctification – holiness and being conformed to the character of Christ.

        True belief in Christ – a repentant heart change of being born again by God’s Spirit, results in forgiveness of sins and the power to now choose the right way over the wrong path, but it is never perfect. No Christian has claimed that. We grow in holiness until death.

        That is also why confession of sins is so important and a loving and Biblical church fellowship with accountability, worship, Biblical teaching, and the Lord’s supper (Eucharist = thanksgiving for what Christ did on the cross and confession of sins before that.)

        Like

    • More than one Arabic speaking person told me this about the differences between

      Al Wadood الودود

      and

      Mohabbah / Mohabbat / Hubb محبت / محبه / حب

      and Eshq عشق

      “God is love” is deep and incorporates all the teaching of all the OT and NT about God and His eternal Son Jesus Al Masih and the Holy Spirit – the Holy Trinity – that God is relationship, spiritual relationship; and He has a close spiritual relationship with His own people (the elect from all nations- Revelation 5:9; 7:9) – I John 4:7-10 –

      You cannot understand God’s love without being converted by the Holy Spirit and without submission to God’s gospel – the understanding of your sinfulness and repenting from that and turning to the Messiah of the NT and His atoning death on the cross and His powerful resurrection from the dead, which proved that Jesus was God in the flesh (John 20:28; 1:1-5; 1:14) and that all of His words are true in all the gospels and all the NT through His apostles and those that helped them write the NT books.

      7 “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

      8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

      9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

      10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation [ atonement-sacrifice- satisfaction of God’s justice / wrath against our sins] for our sins.

      1 John 4:7-10

      Romans 5:1-11
      Christ died for sinners, ungodly, enemies. The only way to know God’s love is a miracle that He has to do in your heart (Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-10), and that only happens if one shows the proof of that by repentance and faith in Christ (and all that He is) and His death and resurrection. (Romans 3:9-28)

      You will never understand God’s love with the cross – the eternal sacrifice, the final qurban قربان / zebh ذبح – the ransom فدا . فدیه

      Like

      • That’s all I have time for, for as you know, this weekend is the celebration of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ / Al Masih from the dead.

        I sincerely hope and wish and pray for all the Muslims here who read and see our discussions that you will read through the New Testament all the way through in large chunks with context and paragraphs and chapters and seeing the whole books as one unit; and the NT as one unified mind of God in writing to us; and stop just picking out verses from Islamic websites and stop relying upon unbelieving / liberal scholarship arguments against the text.

        Dr. White has a great video on some of that. “What scholars ignore”

        Like

      • //Mohabbah / Mohabbat / Hubb محبت / محبه / حب//

        This is wrong Arabic. It’s M(a)habbh/t.

        I don’t think the argument that because your god is love, that means he’s the true god! I think dr Ally schooled dr Craig about this very point about this subject, especially in light of this verse in Pslams “The LORD examines both the righteous and the wicked. He hates those who love violence. ”

        Al-Wodd is definitely love in Arabic. Al-Wadood= The loving one.

        I think you may find the same root in Hebrew. For example the name (David) is From the Hebrew name דָּוִד (Dawid), which was derived from Hebrew דּוֹד (dod) meaning “beloved” .

        The story of Abraham and his son has been answered. You just cannot play with Qur’an as you did with the hebrew bible.

        Like

  13. I don’t think the argument that because your god is love, that means he’s the true god!

    Yes it does. The God of the Bible is the true and living God.

    But you need to read the whole NT in large chunks, not just a verse here and there and from Islamic websites in order to try and isolate from context and score cheap argument points.

    I think dr Ally schooled dr Craig about this very point about this subject, especially in light of this verse in Pslams “The LORD examines both the righteous and the wicked. He hates those who love violence. ”

    Do you have a link for that? Is it on You Tube? Shabir Ally is a nice guy, and a very good debater for Islam; but he never “schooled” any of the Christian debates on the truth of the meaning of the Bible, etc. He just uses liberal western scholarship to create doubt and confusion.

    All who don’t repent and trust in Christ are under the wrath of God. (Yes, God also has holy wrath and anger against sin and sinners who don’t repent.)

    John 3:18
    John 3:36
    Romans 1:18

    So, Shabir Ally could not have “schooled” Dr. Craig on that, because “God is love” does not mean God does have holy and righteous hatred and anger against sin and sinners who won’t repent.

    Those that do repent and trust Christ, experience the fullness of God’s saving love.

    Romans 5:1-11
    I John chapters 3-4

    You guys don’t understand what the Bible teaches at all; since I am seeing lots of arguments like:
    “but you still sin”
    and
    “you still suffer”

    Nowhere does the Bible say we will not suffer anymore. The whole Bible, and especially the NT is about suffering in this world and for the sake of Christ.

    Romans 8:18-25 – we live in a fallen world, full of corruption, sin, evil, injustice, death
    Book of Job in the OT – the righteous suffer for doing right many times, and it is a mystery.
    Book of 1 Peter – persecution of Christians – “do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal and trials”
    Hebrews 12:1-11

    and saying “free from the law”, but not understanding that it does not mean what you think it means.

    In Christ, we are free from the condemnation of the law, which condemns us as guilty and going to hell; and from the bondage of legalisms and externalism of trying to earn your way to get God to accept you. We are freed in order to truly obey the moral law – the power to bear fruit of good works and sincerity and honesty. (Galatians 5:13-26; Romans chapters 6, 7, & 8.

    But you have to experience the new birth by the Spirit of God – John 3:1-10 and the power of Christ’s resurrection from the dead – 1 Corinthians 15, Romans 6, Colossians 2-3

    You cannot understand without the new birth / the Holy Spirit.

    I Corinthians 2:14-16

    Like

    • //Yes it does. The God of the Bible is the true and living God.//
      We are talking about argument which says because god is love, then that means he is the true god!
      This is not an argument at all! Also, christians are the last religious people who have the right to talk about the (the Living God) because their concept of god involves god’s death on a cross naked! Your god is not the true god except by dying on a cross naked, and that’s why “god is love” for you!, which is of course against this verse in the bible “LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, YOU WILL NEVER DIE. You, LORD, have appointed them to execute judgment; you, my Rock, have ordained them to punish.”

      //not just a verse here and there and from Islamic websites in order to try and isolate from context and score cheap argument points.//
      I believe I didn’t do that!, and that’s why you couldn’t have done anything when we pointed to the passages of Psalms. You just want me to go with your interpretation which is against the text itself. Christians are the ones who do what you described! In fact, this corruption began with your prophet Paul https://i.imgur.com/WbCybjA.jpg

      Not to mention Bart’s famous saying that christians create their own gospel which is not found or written by any author of the NT.

      //Shabir Ally is a nice guy, and a very good debater for Islam; but he never “schooled” any of the Christian debates on the truth of the meaning of the Bible//
      You’re kidding, right? Dr. Ally schooled all christians he debated by one way or another, not to mention that he’s familiar with most biblical topics which is something I don’t find with christian apologetics when they talk about Islam. And when I say he schooled dr .Craig, then by priority he did that with all other christian apologetics who just start preaching once they are cornered. At least dr. Craig is consistent with his view although it’s very weak. Let’s be honest here.

      //He just uses liberal western scholarship to create doubt and confusion.//
      The irony here is that dr Ally schooled James White about this very point. Dr Ally quoted the books James had recommended for him, yet James kept whining!

      //Do you have a link for that? Is it on You Tube?//
      It’s one of his debate with dr Craig. When dr Ally responded with that verse in Psalms against the argument of “god is love”, I think dr Craig started saying that God hates the actions not the doers, and black isn’t against White philosophically :). Something like that! You can check it on youtube.

      //You guys don’t understand//

      Actually we do understand! But it’s not our issue that your religion is contradictory by itself!
      When Paul cried so much because he’s under the law of death “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?”, what’s the solution for mr Paul?
      “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.”
      You yourself have have been preaching as you got taught by Paul’s letters for 2 weeks or more that “We sin because our nature is sinful – pride, arrogance, jealousies, lusts, selfishness, bitterness, hatred, sinful anger, etc.” Remember?

      What about christians?
      Th answer is “For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.”

      //Romans 8:18-25 – we live in a fallen world, full of corruption, sin, evil, injustice, death//
      Isn’t that caused by the sin of those who live according to the flesh?, so what’s the normal conclusion about those who got free from the law of sin and live through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life? Answer us! And I’m telling you you cannot answer us, and that’s why the problem of evil is more complicated with christians. Literally Paul left you in darkness!

      Read the words of God. That God whom Jesus used to worship and fear
      “But the Jews and the Christians say, “We are the children of Allah and His beloved.” Say, “Then why does He punish you for your sins?” Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination” QT.

      Liked by 3 people

      • ouch!

        Liked by 1 person

      • at the end, you quote a verse from the Qur’an. Why don’t you give the reference?
        Surah 29:46 or something like that?

        I keep asking you this and you never answer.

        At least I give references so that you can look up the verses and then also read the surrounding context.

        Like

      • You don’t understand the meaning of “free from the law” at all.
        It does not mean we are set free from obligations to obey God’s law.
        The moral law of God convicts sinners of their sins and sinfulness and is for punishing evil people in society. (1 Timothy 1:8-11)

        When it is used properly, rightly with the Gospel of Jesus Christ (of all New Testament principles), (see the text above how the apostle puts the law together with the gospel – “according to the glorious gospel” – verse 1)); then society would flourish and families become healthy and stable, etc. and communities grow and flourish.

        Unfortunately, the secular liberal atheists – skeptics – cultural Marxism, victim mentality, adulteries, pornography, pre-marital sex, LGBT political rights, marijuana and other hard drug use, etc. types have taken over western civilization.

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      • 1 Timothy 1:8-11 – the law is made for convicting people of their sins and sinfulness and for punishing evil doers in society. (see along with Romans 13:1-8)

        verse 11 – “according to the glorious gospel”

        Like

      • //for punishing evil people in society. (1 Timothy 1:8-11)//
        First of all, Paul in that passage was lying! In fact, the the law of spirit represented by Jesus is the one which is made for sinners not righteous ones according to the some gospels!
        Jesus said in the gospels “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”, yet Paul said the exact opposite “We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers”
        Moreover, do christians approve the law of God upon the adulterers, for example? No, you don’t. You just approve the law of pagans or the law of secular people. You hate the law of God as your prophet Paul did. You are just hypocrites when you talk about the law of God.
        Paul said “Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully” + “For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will” = The law of God is not good, and it only leads to death. “who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
        What a lie! Rather, the letters (the written law) leads to life! Not to mention that Paul referred to the written law as garbage and fables of the jews!
        Qur’an answers “And before it was the scripture of Moses to lead and as a mercy. And this is a confirming Book in an Arabic tongue to warn those who have wronged and as good tidings to the doers of good. Indeed, those who have said, “Our Lord is Allah,” and then remained on a right course – there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. Those are the companions of Paradise, abiding eternally therein as reward for what they used to do.”

        It seems Paul thought those people he listed cannot be christians in the first place. However, we know this’s not true as Qur’an tells us. Christians (i.e. those who live through Jesus) do make these sins he listed.
        In addition, Paul said “hand this man over TO SATAN for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord”

        In contrast, look to the teaching of the true Prophet of God.
        “A drunk was brought to the Prophet (ﷺ) and he ordered him to be beaten (lashed). Some of us beat him with our hands, and some with their shoes, and some with their garments (twisted in the form of a lash). When that drunk had left, a man said, “What is wrong with him? May Allah disgrace him!” Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “Do not help Satan against your (Muslim) brother.” Sahih Al Bukahri.

        The law of God on earth has never been a contradictory concept to His Mercy and Grace.

        This life has been created as a test from the beginning. God had been sending His messengers and books for people. The true Path of God has never been a secret which eventually got revealed at the end of times as your prophet Paul falsely claimed. And wha was the secret?! To belive that your god got killed naked on a cross! No! The true Path of God before has been known since Adam came to the earth!
        “Say, [O Muhammad], “Shall we [believers] inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds?
        Those whose efforts in this world are misguided, while they assume that they are doing well. Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him, so their deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day of Resurrection any importance. That is their requital—Hell—on account of their disbelief, and their taking My revelations and My messengers in mockery. As for those who believe and do righteous deeds, they will have the Gardens of Paradise for hospitality. Abiding therein forever, without desiring any change therefrom. Say, [O Muhammad] “If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out,” even if We were to bring the like of it in addition to it. Say, “I am only a man like you, to whom has been revealed that your god is one God. So whoever would hope for the meeting with his Lord – let him do righteous work and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone.” QT

        Liked by 1 person

  14. @ Ken

    Ohhh…my… I didn’t see this. Whelp down the line:

    1. Yes ALL these revolutions start with trying to implement God’s religion. The problem is colonial powers get involved and end up installing a new puppet under a different name.

    2. Both Iran and Saudi are HEAVILY manipulated by colonial powers what are you talking about? First off, Colonialism is what pushed for “Arab nationalism” and basically got in the their mind:
    “Why are you not ruling the Islamic Empire, isn’t your Prophet(saw) from here?”

    Moving on, you might want to brush up on history as that was all super wrong. The twelver Shia were bouncing around after the Fatimids got wiped out by Saladin. They then were gathered together by Ismail the First and given a stronghold in Iran. This had to due with the Shia trying to break of from Muslim rule (as they tried multiple times before) this was just the most successful one. As for WW1 Colonialism was a HUGE factor of the time (and now). They used a man by the name of Sharif Hussein bin Ali to start the war because they lost against the Ottomans at Gallipoli and they needed the strait in Turkey to move Russia’s ships. (Note Hussein simply wanted an Arab empire and become the Caliph but not do to piety but for power). They then betrayed him to the Jews afterwards and through a series of events they bestowed on his 3 sons the kingdoms of Jordan, Arabia and Iraq. The Jordan ruler is still present, The Arabian one was overthrown by the Saudis and Saddam’s former leader overthrew the ruler of Iraq. The did not fight the Ottomans becuse the were “colonialist” they fought them for due to racism bred by colonialism and a power grab. ALL of this was caused by Christian colonialism what are you talking about? Britain wanted Jerusalem by Christmas and when General Allenby conquered Jerusalem he said: “The wars of the crusades are now complete”. So save the missionary propaganda of for somebody else.

    Furthermore, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram and Isis are by consensus of the Scholars Khawarij and have been condemned multiple times for their blatant spilling of Muslim and protected people’s blood. Hamas is a mixture of multiple things not just Islam (non muslims are just stupid and think “Arab” means Muslim) and do a number of Haram things. And the Taliban are not knowledgeable they simply fought against different foreign invasions and then tried to make rulings but they were ignorant tribesman that combined their laws with Islam’s. A point of note is NONE OF THESE PEOPLE LISTED ARE SCHOLARS. MOST OF THEM CAN’T EVEN READ let alone make rulings about the religion. They are manipulated by corrupt people trying to gain power (and who are also being backed by colonial powers). I mean the amount of ignorance you just said is almost jaw dropping.

    Liked by 1 person

    • @ Ken

      3. Moving on, we understand what you’re saying it’s just illogical and an excuse for idolatry. When one thinks it through. You basically said:

      Forget about God and the rulings and laws He told mankind to abide by. Believe in Jesus(as) instead and you will get rid of the “root of sin”. If you still sin you have not gotten rid of the root as you claimed. EVERYTHING you just said in the later post by growing in holiness is the SAME for us we just don’t commit idolatry to do it. Following God’s laws has NOTHING to do with earning your way into Heaven this is just a foolish saying from Christians about Muslims. There are a multitude of EXPLICIT hadith on this:
      https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2018/06/23/do-muslims-believe-they-can-earn-paradise/

      You have faith in God alone and believe He is One. You then do the things He commanded, which in turn increases the faith, which makes you obey more, which increases the faith, which makes you obey Him more add on until infinity. God says:
      “Those who believe and do the little good expected of them, will have their Lord guide them because of their faith…” (10:9)

      So this understanding is in line with the teachings of ALL the prophets and does away with the false doctrines of worshipping a human and saying the Torah is a curse. Faith is not an excuse to worship others besides God or do away with what He has legislated (when in fact it helps in increasing it).

      5. Moving on that is not really the meaning of “God is love” the sentence. But I think I now understand the meaning behind the sentence. Originally I thought you were saying God IS the emotion love itself, whether the love is right or wrong (like between Sodomites or adulterers for example). Yeah there is again no difference between this and Islam. God says:

      “I have sent you only to bring good news and warning to all people, but most of them don’t even realize it.”

      “I didn’t send the Qur’an down to you so that you’ll be stressed out ˹or˺ a failure. It’s only meant to serve as a powerful reminder for those who are god fearing.” (20:2-3)

      “I swear on the Scripture that clarifies. I sent it down on a blessed night and indeed I am always warning. On that night every matter is decided wisely. Through a Word from Me I was to send, an incredible mercy from your Lord who sees and knows all.” (44:2-6)

      “Nor were you on the side of the mountain when I called out to Moses. But now you too have been sent as a mercy from your Lord, to give warning to a nation which no warner has come before, so that they might remember. And so that they can’t say, if a disaster should befall them as a result of what they’ve done with their own hands: “Oh Lord, if only You had sent us a Messenger, we would’ve followed Your message and became believers!” (28:46-47)

      Become a Muslim Ken.

      Liked by 1 person

      • You basically said: “Forget about God and the rulings and laws He told mankind to abide by.”

        I never wrote that or mean that. Where do you get that?

        But I think I now understand the meaning behind the sentence. Originally I thought you were saying God IS the emotion love itself, whether the love is right or wrong (like between Sodomites or adulterers for example). Yeah there is again no difference between this and Islam.

        Wow . . . I am glad you understand a little better. Sodomites or adulterers – that is NOT love at all – Sodomy / homosexuality is not love at all. It is a perversion of God’s creation order.

        Adultery between a man and woman is wrong and sin, but it is not a perversion of the binary (one man and one woman) design of God in creation for sex within marriage. (Genesis chapters 1-2; Proverbs, Song of Solomon)

        Those things are just lust and debauchery and abominations. The Greek distinctions between Agape (commitment of will and actions to be unselfish and think of others), Storge (family love), phileo (friendship, brotherhood), and eros (passion, romance, married love)

        are similar to the Arabic distinctions between
        wadood ودود
        Mohabbat – محبت ، حب، محبه
        Eshq – عشق

        The love of God in the Bible is the Agape sacrificial unselfish love of commitment and action.

        Love is much deeper than the emotion of love. True love is an act of the will and decision and sacrificial and acting on behalf of others – being unselfish; which it also includes the right emotions of love, but we are talking about agape love – we are not talking about “eros” (passion, romantic love between a man and woman.)

        Like

      • The NT never says:

        Forget about God and the rulings and laws He told mankind to abide by.

        You need to study Romans 13 – the whole chapter, along with 1 Timothy 1:8-11

        Like

      • At least you give the references of the Qur’an so I can find them.

        Why doesn’t Abdullah1234 give the references?

        Like

    • Thanks for all the details of those aspects of history and political problems and wars, etc. As with western civilization and history, it is very difficult to sift out the good and evil, and sometimes there is a mixture of both when political power gets the upper hand.

      The complicated nature of wondering what is really going on behind the scenes – is what causes many believers (true Christians) to give up trying to being involved in politics; and seek to try and just live their lives for piety / holiness / righteousness.

      Do you have a recommendation of a good book in English that covers the big picture of those events (history and politics) from a fair and balanced viewpoint?

      Overall, the true Christian and Biblical understanding of sin in the heart – pride, arrogance, selfishness, jealousies, lust, greed, etc. – the proper diagnosis of human beings, is one of the great truths that convinces me that the Bible is true and Christ is the eternal Son / Word of God, who became human to save sinners from all nations.

      Mark 7:20-23
      Genesis 6:5
      Jeremiah 17:9-10
      Matthew 5:21-30
      1 John 2:15-16

      Revelation chapters 4-5 (the whole chapters)

      You are suppossed to look up the verses and read them all and meditate on them.

      As for WW1 Colonialism was a HUGE factor of the time (and now). They used a man by the name of Sharif Hussein bin Ali to start the war because they lost against the Ottomans at Gallipoli and they needed the strait in Turkey to move Russia’s ships.

      Sharif Hussein bin Ali did not start WW 1.

      You need to clarify what you meant by “they used a man by the name of Sharif Hussein bin Ali to start the war . . . ”

      You don’t mean WW 1 start, I think you mean the start of the Arab revolt against the Ottoman Turks.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein_bin_Ali,_Sharif_of_Mecca

      Like

      • @ Ken:

        1. Law
        Ding, ding, ding. This is what I was saying before. You need both aspects of God’s legislation, the internal AND external. God does not just make things forbidden to get a kick out of it, He only forbids what is harmful. So since we agree on this there are only 2 parts that I think we need to discuss:

        1. Do you think the external law should be implemented if given the power in society?
        2. Did you agree with my point on the cycle of Faith in God alone/obey/ faith/obey cycle?

        2. Love
        Ehhh… that’s a little too harsh imo. Someone is not in control of the heart. For example, the prophet Jacob(as) loved Joseph(as) more than the rest of his sons. That was something outside of his control, but he(as) remained just and fair between them all. One can love anything, it’s just what they do with the emotion that counts.

        Also, this was covered previously that “Wadood” is the love that is shown through actions but you objected to this.

        3. Abdullah 1234’s references
        Idk I ask him lol.

        4. WW1 book
        Hmmm… do you mean in general or from the Muslim perspective?

        5. Diagnosis of the human condition
        It is something not exclusive to the Bible. Remember I concede there are parts of revelation in the text still and I think Christians focus on these parts as opposed to the entirety of the text, which is the issue. Reading the gospels according to… was, for the most part, reading ahadith that every once in a while took strange turns.

        6. Arab revolt
        Sorry I should have been clearer, yes you are correct, Sharif Hussein was used to start the Arab revolt not the entirety of WW1. Archduke Ferdinand’s assassination started that if memory serves me. WW1 was already happening hence me talking about the Battle of Gallipoli.

        7. Random question
        Hey, Ken, I tried looking this up but couldn’t find it anywhere. Did deviant groups like the gnostics etc use Jesus’s(as) parables? Were they used universally by all sects but were twisted in interpretation? Or did some groups reject them? If so on what grounds?

        Liked by 3 people

      • There is a lot I agree with there; but don’t have time right now for more. Thanks for good discussion. Maybe hours from now or tomorrow, or another day.

        What did you mean, “that was too harsh” ? (about love)

        Liked by 1 person

  15. @ Ken

    I mean this:

    “Sodomites or adulterers – that is NOT love at all – Sodomy / homosexuality is not love at all. It is a perversion of God’s creation order.

    Adultery between a man and woman is wrong and sin, but it is not a perversion of the binary (one man and one woman) design of God in creation for sex within marriage. (Genesis chapters 1-2; Proverbs, Song of Solomon)

    Those things are just lust and debauchery and abominations.”

    Now, of course, I agree 110% it’s forbidden but I think when said like this it makes Sodomites feel their hearts are evil when they have no control over them. For some reason, people don’t treat this particular sin like the rest and ostracize them as opposed to assisting like any other sin. Its still “love” but God has forbidden this expression of it.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Everyone’s heart is evil. Genesis 6:5; Mark 7:20-23; Jeremiah 17:9

      homosexual lust in the heart is an extra- ordinary perversion and weird twisting of the original creation design.

      Like

      • Of course those that struggle with “same sex attractions” should be helped, and good Biblical churches exist to help, and humble people who are in that situation need to be helped; the problem I and other Christians have is with the political agenda to try and force a transformation of society against traditional marriage and the binary of only two genders / two sexes (Male and female); but there are truly very few of them that are humble and ask for help in today’s political climate and agenda. I don’t believe that most who say they are that, actually are. Some are. But many are just jumping on the “bandwagon” to take hold of political rights and oppression to form coalitions against traditional Christian values. The whole LGBTQ xyz, etc. political agenda is evil at the core – they join with Marxists and other minorities who are in the grievance industry just to take out vengeance and bitterness for their feelings of being oppressed.

        Like

  16. 1. Do you think the external law should be implemented if given the power in society?

    Of course, traditional Christian values are proper and right. But government powers are full of sinners and they made some mistakes in the past. First degree murder, rape, should be executed. Romans 13:1-13; Genesis 9:6; 1 Timothy 1:8-11 – but it should “according with the gospel” not Sharia Islamic law. Some stuff is too harsh.
    Modesty in clothing is right; but not force head coverings. The standards of 1950s in the west and before were good. But the problem is that there were other injustices (against Blacks) that people associate with the era before 1960s in the west.
    The only solution real solution is that God must change hearts. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-10

    Jesus said, “you must be born again by the Spirit of God” John 3:5-8 – it is a totally miraculous thing that only the God of the Bible can do on the inside of you and no one can control when this will happen. Like the wind – John 3:8 – God the Holy Spirit is holy and sovereign over salvation.

    2. Did you agree with my point on the cycle of Faith in God alone/obey/ faith/obey cycle?

    Yes, but what you describe is only for those who have first been born again, ie, for true Christians, since we have the Holy Spirit, and you do not. You don’t even know the true and living God that your religion is trying to reach, because your religion guts and cuts the most vital parts of true doctrine. (Fatherhood of God, eternal Sonship of Christ, eternal Word Jesus Christ, Deity of Christ, Deity of the Holy Spirit, The Trinity, the atonement, original sin, salvation by faith in Christ alone, internal over external law; the power of the Holy Spirit and grace to change a human being, etc.

    You are still dead (separated from the true God) in your sins – Ephesians 2:1-3

    1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

    [see Genesis 2:16-17 and 3:1-23; Romans 5:12; Psalm 51:4-5; 58:3; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9]

    2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
    3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

    Like

  17. Word War 1 book -I was thinking more of an overview that includes that, but covers more than that – since you commented on a lot of other history – the Fatimah Caliphate, the Persian Safavids who decided to become Shia in the 1500s, Omar and Khalid, etc. (what they did against the whole area in conquering all of Levant and North Africa was all evil and unjust war, no matter if Khalid was only in the Levant, etc. – I admit I don’t know the names of the other generals, etc. – that was all unjust war from 632-732 AD, the battle of Tours, when the Islamic unjust harb / Jihad / Qatal was finally stopped by Charles Martel.

    Like

  18. Random Question about the Gnostics:

    I actually wrote an article about this in 2011:

    http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/05/hermeneutic-system-of-heretics-is-very.html

    In that article, I quote from Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:8:1

    in that passage, Irenaeus mentions the bad methods of the Gnostics who ignore context and just jump here and there and distort the parables of Jesus also.

    Liked by 1 person

    • @ Ken

      1. Sodomites
      No I don’t want a misunderstanding of “Oh it’s okay” (notice I say sodomites their actual name, not LGBTQ) and I agree there is a political agenda (like literally almost any tv show nowadays has a sodomite. Seriously I haven’t even seen that many in real life lol) I’m just stating I find it weird people are not consistent with their harshness on this particular sin, when there are way worse ones.

      2. The External Law
      A. You’re allowing culture to influence your position. You can’t pick and choose what you personally believe is right. When I say the external law I’m talking the ENTIRETY of Moses’s law (which is WAY harsher than the Shariah btw). Killing adulterers (Deuteronomy 22:22), If at war slaughter every inhabitant of a city but if they surrender beforehand to make them slaves (Deuteronomy 20:10-11), amputation of a woman’s hand if she grabs a man’s genitals defending her husband in a fight (Deuteronomy 25:11-12) killing apostates (Deuteronomy 13) etc. If it’s as you say if you had the authority would you implement ALL of the external law?

      B. BTW most of the Shariah isn’t that harsh. Are harshest laws off the top of my head are armed robbery/rape, thievery, adultery, apostasy and homosexuality (even ten these are hard to prove). Regarding headscarves to begin there is no text to punish the lack thereof, so the government can decide to let it go or introduce what they think might encourage it. Headscarves are in line with the teachings of the prophets:

      For she had said to the servant, What man is this that walks in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a veil, and covered herself. (Genesis 24:65)

      On learning who it was she took a veil – “the cloak-like veil of Arabia” (Keil), which covers not merely the face, but, “like a kind of large wrapper, nearly the whole form, rendering it impossible to recognize the person” (Kalisch) – and covered herself. (Pulpit Commentary)

      65. she took a veil, and covered herself—The veil is an essential part of female dress. In country places it is often thrown aside, but on the appearance of a stranger, it is drawn over the face, as to conceal all but the eyes… (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary)

      So it’s for all intent and purposes in there this is just a cultural issue on your part. The Jews nowadays tried to circumvent this with wearing wigs and then abandoned the practice.

      Like

      • @ Ken

        3. Faith/Law cycle
        Hmmm… I think I more or less just disproved that by having a more consistent methodology. As has been seen Noah(as), Abraham(as), Issac(as), Jacob(as), Moses(as), David(as) and even Jesus(as) would have followed what I said.

        Faith in God alone, obey what God has legislated, which increases faith, add on infinity. There was no need to believe in an idol in this. Are you going to argue your faith is superior to the men I just named?

        4. WW1
        Whelp perspective is a big thing when talking about this war. Sheikh Yasir Qadhi has a good lecture from the Muslim perspective of things and he is more or less neutral n his pt. 1 of the topic. He also discusses some of the back dealings such as why the allies chose to give Palestine to the Jews over Sharif Hussein:

        As for in general I haven’t found too many I would recommend. As I said I like to see how the nation itself viewed things and the back dealings we know about going on in the background. Most of this stuff becomes to conspiracy esque for my taste. If you find a good one let me know.

        5. The defeat of Persia and Rome as well as Charles Martel
        A. Prophecy in our and your books
        B. None of these nations we’re good people
        C. I find it strange you defend Joshua’s(as) alleged genocide of the Holy Land as righteous and just but in the same breath condemn us even though we were WAY more merciful.
        D. Charles Martel hardly stopped anything as neither side considered it of particular importance. (This is more propagated by kuffar to get other ones hyped up) It was a raid more than anything and the Umayyads got greedy carrying too much loot. They would have won as they were breaking the line but a rumor that the loot was in danger is what caused the cavalry to turn around and them to be defeated. The expansion era kept on keeping on until I think like the Abbasids (who were decadent)
        E. Umar(ra) was not oppressive, you’re really not going to win this.
        http://www.alim.org/library/biography/khalifa/content/KUM/17/37

        5. Parables
        So to the best of your knowledge, there was no sect that denied the parables or didn’t use them, correct?

        Like

      • Those external punishment laws that you mention were only for Theocratic Israel and temporary.
        Since the kingdom of God was taken away from Theocratic Israel in the new covenant (Matthew 21:43-46, larger context from verse 33, and all of chapter 23 down to Matthew 24:33); those harsh ones you mention are no longer binding.

        The New Testament abrogated SOME things in God’s law – some of the punishments, war & real-estate – land issues stuff connected to the promised land, the temple sacrifices and priestly ceremonial laws, tithing, circumcision, etc. (civil and ceremonial laws, but it did not abrogate moral laws as the principles of right and wrong for all nations, but only some of the punishments. Death penalty for first degree murder and rape, if proven by just process of trials, evidence, etc. should still be – Romans 13; Genesis 9:6)

        Like

  19. 5. Parables
    So to the best of your knowledge, there was no sect that denied the parables or didn’t use them, correct?

    I don’t know the answer to that. I would have to get a good list of all the other heresies and see if they even used the parables, etc.

    Marcion completely denied all of Matthew, Mark, and John.
    some heresies and sects – we don’t have a lot of information about and the question may not be know either way.

    Marcion only used Luke, and cut out quotes from the OT.

    So, the parables not in Luke, that were in Mark and Matthew, he must have denied.

    Like

  20. Thanks for that link to Yasir Qadi’s lecture. I like him; he is a respectable Muslim and I can see why Dr. White appreciates debating him.

    I hope to find more time to eventually listen to the whole thing.

    Like

    • @ Ken

      Ohh… Romans 13 how convenient was that for Imperialist Rome. Anyways, so what methodology do you have to claim a law was or was not abrogated? It seems to me to be a case of claiming the Torah is good but not really believing it and instead putting something else into practice (mostly your culture).

      Moving on, Marcion was still using parables even if he rejected some. So we basically have no sect that denied Jesus used parables period point blank. Very interesting…

      What was the early Christianity’s views of them in relation to Jesus?

      Like

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