Guest article by Sam Shamoun: Bart Ehrman and the Trinity

As I mentioned on January 12 I have invited Christian polemicist Sam Shamoun to write an article on BT. Here it is. As usual it is open for comments – with one proviso. Any abuse will result in the comment being deleted without warning as this blog aspires to be a forum for serious Christian-Muslim dialogue and discussion. Thank You.

Bart Ehrman and the Trinity Pt. 1

Bart D. Ehrman is in my estimation one of the leading and most influential scholars of the Greek New Testament living today. Even though he is an agnostic/atheist who does not believe in the truth of the Christian faith, I have personally benefited from his writings, lectures and debates. More importantly, despite his rejection of the Christian religion (or any religion for that matter), Ehrman has made claims that actually confirm the historical veracity and cherished beliefs of Christianity, some of which I will be highlighting here in my review of certain points he has raised concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. 

In a comment made in one of his lectures, which Muslims have zeroed in on, Ehrman argues that the only passage that expressly mentions the Trinity turns out to be a spurious interpolation within the manuscript tradition:

“The doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly taught in any passage of the Bible. In other words… the doctrine that there is one God manifested in three Persons; that these three Persons are each individually and completely God, but there’s only one God. Not three gods but one God, but not one Person three Persons, so the Three in One. This is not taught in any passage of the Bible except first John chapter 5 verses 7 and 8, which the author says, ‘there are three witnesses in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these Three are One.’ That’s a pretty explicit statement about the Trinity.” (“Adding Trinity to the Bible” https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=120&v=kGKAWCREOKs)

Ehrman makes essentially the same point in one of his writings:

“There was one key passage of scripture that Erasmus’s source manuscripts did not contain, however. This is the account in John 5:7-8, which scholars have called the Johannine Comma, found in the manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate but not in the vast majority of Greek manuscripts, a passage that had long been a favorite among Christian theologians since it is the only passage in the entire Bible that explicitly delineates the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, but that three all constitute just one God. In the Vulgate, the passage reads:

There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness on earth, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.

“It is a mysterious passage, but unequivocal in its support of the traditional teachings of the church on the ‘triune God who is one.’ Without this verse, the doctrine of the Trinity must be inferred from a range of passages combined to show that Christ is God, as is the Spirit and the Father, and that there is, nonetheless, only one God. This passage, in contrast, states the doctrine directly and succinctly.” (Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why [HarperSanFrancisco, 2005], pp. 80-81)

According to Ehrman, 1 John 5:7 is a textual corruption, which was added later, and therefore not a part of what John originally wrote.

I will not be challenging Ehrman’s position that 1 John 5:7 is an interpolation, which does not belong to the inspired text of Scripture. My aim in this post is to show how Ehrman’s argument provides little solace for the Muslims who often misuse Ehrman to support their anti-Christian jihad. As I am going to demonstrate, Ehrman’s argument ends up proving that the Biblical writings do in fact confirm the doctrine of the Trinity, and specifically the essential Deity of the Lord Jesus.   

Here is the verse in question:

“There are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one (kai hotoui hoi treis hen eisin).” 1 John 5:7

Ehrman’s entire argument seems to hinge on the fact that 1 John 5:7 expressly says that the three divine Persons of the Godhead are said to be one (hen). I presume that Ehrman takes the oneness that is highlighted here as an oneness or unity of essence. Ehrman believes that John is basically affirming that the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are one in essence, e.g., that the three are essentially one.

This immediately raises two specific issues. First, it is not at all certain that the unity that the Evangelist is highlighting in this text is in respect to the common essence that the three divine Persons share. The context is addressing the witness that God has given in respect to his Son bringing life all who would believe in his name:

“This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one that testifies, for the Spirit is the truth. There are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: The Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree. If we receive human testimony, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has testified to his Son. Those who believe in the Son of God have the testimony in their hearts. Those who do not believe in God have made him a liar by not believing in the testimony that God has given concerning his Son. And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:6-13

As such, the oneness here seems to be in relation to the unified witness of the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit in their agreement and confession of the Person and work of the Son.

The great Christian reformer and theologian, John Calvin, made the same point in his exposition of the Holy Scriptures: 

7.There are three than bear record in heaven The whole of this verse has been by some omitted. Jerome thinks that this has happened through design rather than through mistake, and that indeed only on the part of the Latins. But as even the Greek copies do not agree, I dare not assert any thing on the subject. Since, however, the passage flows better when this clause is added, and as I see that it is found in the best and most approved copies, I am inclined to receive it as the true reading(94) And the meaning would be, that God, in order to confirm most abundantly our faith in Christ, testifies in three ways that we ought to acquiesce in him. For as our faith acknowledges three persons in the one divine essence, so it is called in so really ways to Christ that it may rest on him.

When he says, These three are one, he refers NOT TO ESSENCE, but on the contrary to consent; as though he had said that the Father and his eternal Word and Spirit harmoniously testify the same thing respecting Christ. Hence some copies have ες ν, “for one.” But though you read ν εσιν, as in other copies, yet there is no doubt but that the Father, the Word and the Spirit are said to be one, in the same sense in which afterwards the blood and the water and the Spirit are said to agree in one. (Calvin’s Commentaries https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/cal/1-john-5.html; capital and underline emphasis ours)

Now one can argue that the consensual witness of the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit is due to their essential unity. I.e., the reason why the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are perfectly united in their confession is because they are perfectly united in their respective essence.

However, even though this would be a true statement, since the inspired Scriptures emphatically proclaim that the divine Members of the Godhead can never act independently from the others, or be in conflict with one another, but are always working in perfect, inseparable unity,

“Therefore the Jews started persecuting Jesus, because he was doing such things on the sabbath. But Jesus answered them, ‘My Father is still working, and I also am working.’ For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he was not only breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God. Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but ONLY what he sees the Father doing; for WHATEVER the Father does, the Son does LIKEWISE. The Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing; and he will show him greater works than these, so that you will be astonished. Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life. Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself; and he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his [the Son’s] voice and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.’” John 5:16-30(1)

“‘for I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.’ Then the Jews began to complain about him because he said, ‘I am the bread that came down from heaven.’ They were saying, ‘Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, “I have come down from heaven”?’ Jesus answered them, ‘Do not complain among yourselves. No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day.’” John 6:38-44(1)

“So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own, but I speak these things as the Father instructed me. And the one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to him.’” John 8:28-29

“I do not judge anyone who hears my words and does not keep them, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my word has a judge; on the last day the word that I have spoken will serve as judge, for I have not spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I speak, therefore, I speak just as the Father has told me.’” John 12:47-50

“I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us be on our way.” John 14:30-31

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” John 16:12-13

The fact still remains that the primary emphasis of 1 John 5:7 is not on the essential unity of the Godhead, but on their unified testimony to Jesus’ being the divine, unique Son of God who has come to give life to all who will put their trust in him.

Lord Jesus willing, I will have more to say in the next segment of my discussion. 

Endnotes

(1) Astonishingly, the glorious Lord makes claims that no mere God-fearing creature could ever make, especially if s/he was/is a Muslim. No mere human can ever say s/he can only do whatever God does, since finite creatures are incapable of doing everything that God does, and often do things that God would never do, such as sinning.

In fact, Jesus claims to perform the very functions, which the Quran itself ascribes to God alone. For instance, the Islamic text describes Allah as the truth that gives life to the dead and who raises them from out of their graves at the impending hour:

That is because God — He is the Truth, and brings the dead to life, and is powerful over everything, and because the Hour is coming, no doubt of it, and God shall raise up whosoever is within the tombs. S. 22:6-7 Arberry

And yet Jesus states that he is the One who raises the dead from their graves at the last day/hour by the sovereign power of his all-glorious voice!

The Lord further claims to be the Truth and the Life,

“Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” John 14:6

Characteristics that even the Quran agrees belong to true deity, as we just saw. 

Jesus’ words confirm that the reason why the three divine Persons of the Godhead are incapable of acting independently from one another is because they are inseparably one in their respective essence. This in turn shows that their unified witness concerning the Son is grounded in their essential unity. 

 

 

 



Categories: Bart Ehrman, Bible, Christianity, Christology, Guest article, Sam Shamoun, Trinity

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36 replies

  1. So I’m confused about this articles purpose and argument. Is Shamoun arguing that the exclusion of 1 John 5:7 (which I believe he concedes is an interpolation (i.e forgery in laymen’s terms)) makes no difference on the doctrine of the Trinity being found in John? I cmay have misunderstood him as I’m human but if that’s the case, I don’t think anyone argued that the Trinity in John is dependent solely on 1 John 5:7. What is being argued is that:

    1. There is no explicit mention of the Trinity in John and the closest verse was a forgery
    2. It has to be inferred despite clear verses stating otherwise to refute it.

    Anyone who’s read John knows this author believed Jesus(as) to be a pre-existent semi-divine being but the point is this author did not consider him equal to the Father so the doctrine is still not found. The closest Christian sect in my opinion to the author’s beliefs in John is the Jehovah Witness.

    God (All-Powerful being, created the world etc)
    I
    Jesus (Pre existed with God but kinda of like a subservient force to the Father’s will like the Holy Spirit is in modern Christendom)

    Liked by 5 people

    • Wait for the second part of my discussion.

      Like

    • BTW, your comments ignored what I wrote in the endnotes in regards to the fact that Jesus does the very works that your very own Quran says only Allah can do. This in itself refutes your bald assertion that John does not believe that Jesus is essential coequal with the Father, a point I will be thoroughly refuting in the second segment.

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      • @ AIB

        I was actually respectful of your beliefs, but the author of John does not believe Jesus is equal to God. I’ll wait for your next article but the concept of the Trinity is pretty easy to refute if one uses an established methodology for interpretation. The main one is verses that are ambiguous or being argued over are interpreted via clear cut ones.

        Btw I did notice your endnotes and again even though the discussion is on your books this still wouldn’t be proof of Jesus’s(as) divinity in Islam, this is just your interpretation into the text. Simple refutation (ignoring the fact that the words of John can’t actually be reliably traced to Jesus(as) so I have no obligation to believe them) using the same methodology you used:

        …Jesus had spoken to them: “I’ve no doubt come to you with a clear sign from your Lord… I bring the dead to life by GODS PERMISSION… This is a great sign for you in all this, if you’re real believers.”(3:49)

        So Jesus(as) is not able to do these things on his own, God has bestowed a miracle through him like all other prophets. Unless you want to argue that Moses(as) spilt the sea through his own power. Again, if we’re going to be consistent using your interpretation of divine attributes you should also worship Elijah(as) as well because he also brought someone back from the dead in 1 Kings 17:17-24.

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      • Stew, the fact you went to the Quran to explain away what I wrote from John only proves my point. You cannot prove Jesus is not equal to God in John’s Gospel, which is why you ran to the Quran to make your case. But even what you cited from the Quran didn’t prove your point, but further highlighted your gross misreading of your own book, much like you have been misreading John’s Gospel. So let me therefore put holes in your distortion of both books.

        To begin with, please quote a verse from either the Bible or the Quran where someone other than God will resurrect the dead at the last day.

        Second, please quote a verse from either the Bible or the Quran where a prophet claimed to be the truth or the life after performing a miracle, names which Islamic theology confirms belong only to God, i.e., tauhid al-asma wa-sifaat.

        This in itself obliterates your appeal to 1 Kings 17, which is nothing more than a straw man since I didn’t say that raising the dead makes someone divine. Rather, what I said is that Jesus will be doing the very thing which even the Quran says only Allah will do, namely, raise the dead from their graves AT THE LAST DAY/HOUR. Moreover, no prophet performed miracles to confirm the fact of their possessing unique divine names and titles, which even the Quran admits only to God. Therefore, you can easily refute me by quoting any prophet claiming to be THE Resurrection and THE Life, THE Truth etc., and then performing miracles to confirm these divine claims. Until you do, please stop your straw man arguments because you are getting to be rather boring.

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      • Let me now refute your canard that Quran 3:49 states that Allah gave Jesus PERMISSION to perform his divine works.

        To begin with, the phrase “God’s Leave” need not mean that Jesus was given the power to carry out these amazing feats. Rather, this expression can simply mean that Allah or God gave Jesus the permission to exercise his intrinsic divine authority to perform these miraculous signs and wonders. Note, for instance, how the following verse employs this phrase:

        Whosoever is an enemy of Gabriel: he it is who sent it down upon thy heart by God’s Leave, confirming that which was there before, and as a guidance and glad tiding for the believers. S. 2:97

        It is clear from the context that “by God’s Leave” means here that Gabriel had to first receive permission from Allah before he could bring down portions of the Quran to Muhammad. As such, the expression doesn’t mean that Gabriel was given the ability to descend or ascend, but rather the permission to do so. In a similar manner, Jesus had to first receive permission from God to perform miracles, since he had come to do God’s will, not his own.

        This is precisely what the Holy Bible teaches, namely, Christ could not and did not act independently from God, but only did whatever the Father commanded him:

        “Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.” John 8:28-29

        “For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.” John 12:49-50

        “But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.” John 14:31

        And yet because he is the divine Son, Christ could do everything that the Father does in the exact same way that the Father does it:

        “The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole. And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead SHALL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves SHALL HEAR HIS [THE SON’S] VOICE, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.” John 5:15-30

        “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:38-40

        Christ claims the power to give life and raise the dead in the same way that the Father does, and demands to receive the same exact honor that the Father receives, since he is the beloved Son and divine Judge who shall determine the eternal destiny of every single individual. As I have already noted, all of these are divine functions which the Quran attributes ONLY TO GOD!

        This brings me to my next point. Your view pretty much ends up turning your god into a mushrik since your view means that your deity has taken a creature to be his divine partner by permitting him to share in his exclusive divine attributes, titles and functions. Jesus is the ONLY ONE in your quran who creates in the same way that your god does, and who raises the dead and gives life like your god does. According to the Quran, no one else is ever said to raise the dead, give life, create objects from clay and breathe life into them except Jesus and your god.

        Therefore, I am going to issue another challenge for you to answer. Please quote a single verse from your Quran where someone other than Allah and Jesus give life to the dead, or create objects from clay and breathe life into them.

        And make sure you do not tap dance around my challenge much like you have been doing with my other challenge.

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    • I do believe the NT has passages that depict Jesus as more than a man according to Islamic theology (though there are also many that depict him as the opposite) but the question is does it do that according to the bible itself.

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  2. @ AIB

    Uhh… you’re the one who brought the Qur’an into the discussion, I never even brought up the topic literally a post before mine:

    “BTW, your comments ignored what I wrote in the endnotes in regards to the fact that Jesus does the very works that your very own Quran says only Allah can do… ”

    So no my refutation is not a straw man (please learn the proper definition) as you attempted to use the Qur’an to establish for some unknown reason that Jesus(as) has divine characteristics in Islam again (emphasis mine):

    “the ISLAMIC TEXT describes Allah as the truth that gives life to the dead and who raises them from out of their graves at the impending hour:

    That is because God — He is the Truth, and brings the dead to life, and is powerful over everything, and because the Hour is coming, no doubt of it, and God shall raise up whosoever is within the tombs. S. 22:6-7 Arberry

    And yet Jesus states that he is the One who raises the dead from their graves at the last day/hour by the sovereign power of his all-glorious voice!

    The Lord further claims to be the Truth and the Life,

    “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” John 14:6

    Characteristics that even THE QUR’AN t agrees belong to true deity, as we just saw.”

    And my response(which again you emphasized) demonstrated that this is not true. So I am not the one lacking in reading comprehension in this discussion. So would you like to wait until you can organize your thoughts better in your next article or would you like to establish that the unknown author of John believed Jesus(as) to be lesser than the God but a pre-existant semi-divine being?

    Liked by 2 people

  3. @ AIB

    Wow, none of that was relevant to the discussion of does John teach the Trinity and us establishing a methodology for interpretation lol. So I guess.. we’re talking on the Qur’an and what it teaches now? Idk anyways summing up your points:

    1. By God’s Permission
    Actually, the verse can mean Gabriel can’t move without God’s permission and there’s no reason to reject that reading. You see NOTHING happens unless God gives it permission to do so. So for example, if God didn’t want you to be able to move to the computer and type up your next response it will never happen. He gives you permission to do so. That’s the meaning of verses such as:

    …there’s no power except through God… (18:38)

    The Kingdom of the heavens and the earth is God’s and God has power over ALL things. (3:189)

    Don’t let their words sadden you. Power belongs entirely to God and He hears and knows all. (10:65)

    Final note, this is a “semantic fallacy” just because words can mean different things the context of the Surah regarding Jesus(as) doing things by God’s permission is clearly emphasizing he did his miracles because God allowed him to. Again if I use other verses of the Qur’an this is clear.

    (Jesus said) “God is my Lord and yours. So worship Him, this is the undeviating way.” (43:64)

    The Qur’an is clearly making the point that Jesus(as) was a prophet that the people went to the extreme in regards to.

    2. Shamoun’s challenge?
    Did anyone in the Qur’an give life besides Jesus(as) and God? Sure whoever hit the dead man with a piece of the cow.

    “Remember when you all murdered a man and were hurling accusations at each other. God is the One to bring out what you hide…And I revealed: “Strike him with a piece of it.” That’s how God restores the dead to life and shows you His miraculous signs, so that you might tie down your emotions and think. (2:72-73)

    So someone performed a miracle for the Children of Israel by hitting a corpse with a piece of a cow and bringing it to life.

    3. Jesus(as) said…
    Uhhh.. that’s a strong statement. With the agreement of most Biblical textual critics that

    Mark 16:9-20
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16%3A9-20&version=KJV

    John 7:53–8:11 (i.e. the same book you’re currently quoting)
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8%3A1-11&version=NLT

    Are forgeries this shows that people had no issue lying about what Jesus(as) said. Combine that with a broken chain back to Jesus(as) and unknown authorship who for all I know Jimmy the drunk fisherman who likes to tell tales wrote, I have no reason to believe he said any of this. My initial point was and still is the author of John did not believe Jesus’s(as) relationship with God is like the Trinity. From reading John they believe Jesus(as) is pre existent semi divine being subservient to God who came “in the flesh”. Again if you don’t have an initial belief and just read the text with the author’s clear statements you can get an idea what the author is trying to convey. Yes, John’s author has Jesus(as) being semi-divine hence all the things you’re quoting like authority being transferred etc but he did not believe this semi-divine being was equal to God. He has a similar belief to Jehovah Witness or Arianism.

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    • As if you couldn’t prove that you really are a joke and a waste of time, but here goes. I am going to let the Study Quran refute your assertion.

      Study Note on Q. 5:110

      “… His creating live birds out of clay birds, healing the blind and the leper, and raising the dead are likewise recounted in 3:49 (for blind and leper, see 3:49c). These last three miraculous powers attributed to Jesus are EXTRAORDINARY in that THEY SUGGEST POWERS USUALLY RESERVED FOR GOD; God is the one who heals (26:8 [sic]); He is the raiser of the dead throughout the Quran: and the creation of birds from clay and bringing them to life by breathing upon them IS EXACTLY PARALLEL TO GOD’S CREATION OF THE HUMAN BEING (15:26-29; 32:7-9; 38:71-72). The verse repeatedly makes clear, however, that all these powers are done by God’s leave (by My Leave) and so are ultimately His. Jesus’ ability to heal and power to raise the dead are also found in the canonical Gospels, and a similar account of Jesus’ creating birds from clay is given in the noncanonical Infancy Gospel of Thomas.” (P. 334)

      Excerpt from the Essay: The Quranic View Of Sacred History and Other Religions

      “Jesus is referred to in the Quran as a messenger of God and as God’s Word (3:45; 4:171), who is aided by the Holy Spirit (2:87, 253; 5:110). Although he is regarded as the Messiah (al-Masih), he is not referred to as the ‘Son of God’ or as ‘God Incarnate.’

      “Belief in the incarnation of God in Jesus is in fact repudiated in two Quranic verses: They indeed have disbelieved who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary’ (5:17, 72). The Quran emphasizes that Jesus was not God, but a servant and messenger of God: The Messiah would never disdain to be a servant of God (4:172). The Messiah, son of Mary, was naught but a messenger–messengers have passed away before him. And his mother was truthful. Both of them ate food (5:75).

      “Despite this emphasis upon his human nature, Jesus is recognized as holding an exalted position in relation to other prophets: Those are the messengers. We have favored some above others. Among them are those to whom God spoke, and some He raised up in ranks. And We gave Jesus son of Mary clear proofs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (2:253). The best example of Jesus’ particular distinction among the prophets is the miracle of the virgin birth…

      “The Prophet Muhammad is said to have confirmed that of all human beings, ONLY Jesus and the Virgin Mary were born without the stain of sin: “There is none born among the offspring of Adam, but that Satan touches it. A child, therefore, cries loudly at the time of its birth because of the touch of Satan, except for Mary and her child.”30

      “Not only was the birth of Jesus a miracle, but other passages bear witness to A CREATIVE LIFE-GIVING POWER possessed by Jesus that WAS NOT GRANTED TO ANY OTHER PROPHET…

      “Despite these affirmations of Jesus’ Divinely given powers, the concept of the Trinity is criticized in the Quran: And say not ‘Three.’ Refrain! It is better for you. God is only one God; Glory be to Him (4:171). Another verse is more severe, condemning those who claim that God is one of three: They certainly disbelieve, those who say, ‘Truly God is the third of three,’ while there is no god save one God. If they refrain not from what they say, a painful punishment will befall those among them who disbelieved (5:73). This, however, IS NOT A DIRECT CONDEMNATION OF CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY, for Trinitarian theology DOES NOT MAKE GOD ONE OF THREE, but rather speaks of the triune God, Who is both one and three in a manner that transcends human understanding. Viewed in this light, 5:73 DOES NOT OPPOSE the various forms of orthodox trinitarian doctrines that have prevailed for most of Christian history. Rather, it appears to oppose crude misunderstandings of it that would lead one to believe that there are three gods instead of one. That the Quranic discussion of the Trinity is addressed to misunderstandings of Christian doctrine IS MADE CLEAR IN 5:116-17…” (Pp. 1777-1779)

      30. Al-Bukhari 60.47 (no. 3468), 65.[3].2 (no. 4590). Another account of this saying reads: “No child is born but that he is pricked by Satan and begins to weep because of the pricking of Satan, except for the son of Mary and his mother” (Muslim 44.40 [no. 6282]). A third version states: “Satan touches son of Adam on the day when his mother gives birth to him, except Marry and her son” (Muslim 44.40 [no. 6284]).

      31. That the Oneness of God is fundamental to traditional Christianity is clear from the beginning of the Nicene Creed: “We believe in one God, the Father, Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.” As the third-century church father Tertullian writes: “Father and Son and Spirit are three, however, not in status but in rank, not in substance but in form, not in power but in appearance; they are, however, of one substance and of one status and of one power, because God is one, from whom these ranks and forms and appearances are designated as Father and Son and Holy Spirit” (Adversus Praxean, chap. 2; cited in Luke Timothy Johnson, The Creed [New York: Doubleday, 2004], 121). (Pp. 1778-1779)

      With that said, let me repeat my challenge for the umpteenth time. I will put in all caps with the hopes that it will sink in this time around.

      PLEASE QUOTE A VERSE FROM THE QURAN WHERE A PROPHET BREATHES LIFE INTO A CLAY OBJECT AND BRINGS IT TO LIFE. FURTHER CITE AN EXAMPLE WHERE A PROPHET RAISED A DEAD PERSON BACK TO LIFE.

      With that said, I am going to address your sole example in my next post.

      Like

    • Let’s see how well you did in responding to my challenge to show from the Quran where someone other than Allah and Jesus raises the dead:

      {2. Shamoun’s challenge?
      Did anyone in the Qur’an give life besides Jesus(as) and God? Sure whoever hit the dead man with a piece of the cow.

      “Remember when you all murdered a man and were hurling accusations at each other. God is the One to bring out what you hide…And I revealed: “Strike him with a piece of it.” That’s how God restores the dead to life and shows you His miraculous signs, so that you might tie down your emotions and think. (2:72-73)

      So someone performed a miracle for the Children of Israel by hitting a corpse with a piece of a cow and bringing it to life.}

      This is your best example? I almost feel embarrassed for you. Let me highlight the part you obviously missed:

      Remember ye slew a man and fell into a dispute among yourselves as to the crime: But God was to bring forth what ye did hide. So We said: “Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer).” Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand. S. 2:72-73 Y. Ali

      Not only does this verse say absolutely nothing about a person raising the dead to life, IT DOESN’T EVEN SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE DEADY BODY COMING BACK TO LIFE AT ALL! You inferred this by reading that into the text. The fact is the verse doesn’t say that the body came back to life after being struck with a piece of the heifer. And yet the passage does emphasize that IT IS GOD THAT BRINGS THE DEAD TO LIFE!

      Therefore, I am going to reissue my challenge ONCE AGAIN. Cite a passage WHERE YOUR QURAN REFERS TO A PROPHET RAISING THE DEAD BESIDES ALLAH AND JESUS. I won’t be holding my breath for you to prove your case since we both know you can’t do so.

      Like

    • Let me refute the rest of your red herrings and straw men. You write:

      {1. By God’s Permission
      Actually, the verse can mean Gabriel can’t move without God’s permission and there’s no reason to reject that reading. You see NOTHING happens unless God gives it permission to do so. So for example, if God didn’t want you to be able to move to the computer and type up your next response it will never happen. He gives you permission to do so. That’s the meaning of verses such as:

      …there’s no power except through God… (18:38)

      The Kingdom of the heavens and the earth is God’s and God has power over ALL things. (3:189)

      Don’t let their words sadden you. Power belongs entirely to God and He hears and knows all. (10:65)

      Final note, this is a “semantic fallacy” just because words can mean different things the context of the Surah regarding Jesus(as) doing things by God’s permission is clearly emphasizing he did his miracles because God allowed him to. Again if I use other verses of the Qur’an this is clear.

      (Jesus said) “God is my Lord and yours. So worship Him, this is the undeviating way.” (43:64)}

      Thank you for again proving you have no business engaging in polemics. Your own assertion here proves my point and shows you didn’t understand my response. Saying that nothing happens without God’s permission is not the same thing as proving that Jesus was given the ability to perform the functions which even the Quran admits are divine acts that only your god performs. What makes your response all the more pathetic is that you cite verses that actually prove my point, since every single text you quoted EMPLOYED THE WORDS QUWA (18:39), QADAR (3:189), AND IZZA (10:65). NONE OF THEM EMPLOY THE WORD ITHNA, i.e. “permission”! This, therefore, proves my exact point. The Quran DOES NOT SAY Allah gave Jesus the power, but rather gave him permission to exercise the power he intrinsically possessed by virtue of being the Word and Spirit of God.

      And the only fallacy is in your red herrings and straw manning since you have assumed that being granting permission is the same as receiving power to do the things that the Quran ascribes to Jesus.

      You further highlight your inability to think logically by citing a verse where Jesus allegedly says to worship God, his Lord and theirs, which fails to even begin to refute the fact that your Quran describes Jesus performing divine acts which no one besides God performs.

      Are you really that dense in the brain that you cannot see how you are actually proving my point and refuting your smokescreens for all to see?

      More importantly, even if we take your claim seriously (which I don’t since your argument is a joke) that Allah gave Jesus the power to do these divine feats, this still does not address my argument that this means that your god ends up being a mushrik for making a creature his associate in creating and giving life.

      Finally, your red herring in bringing up Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-8:11 only further shows why you need to retire from polemics since I’ll have a field day highlighting the massive textual corruptions of your holy book. I don’t think you really want me to cite all your sources which speak of missing chapters and verses, since I assure you I will end up embarrassing you if you decide to go down this path.

      Like I said, you really need to return to whatever it was you were doing since defending Islam is not your cup of camel urine mixed with milk.

      Like

      • Oh no, “The Study Qu’ran” a work written by a bunch of nobodies comprised of 2 kuffar, 2 Sufis and a Shia. First, I’ll just help you out with the part you forgot to emphasize in your quote:

        “…The verse repeatedly makes clear, however, that all these powers are done by God’s leave (by My Leave) and so are ultimately His…” (Study Note on Q. 5:110)

        As for your other quote it’s from the same kaffir no one cares about who wrote your first statement.

        The Qur’an explicitly refutes the Trinity and this persons three argument was beyond stupid. It’s like when God says the pagans worship gods of gold and wood. Do they REALLY worship gold and wood? No they have such a deep philosophical bunch of mumbo jumbo in their minds, God is doing the same way with the Trinity. While you believe it’s some deep mystery God is just calling it what it is the worship of three gods. The fact that this person believes the trinity is not thoroughly rejected in Islam is enough proof they had no qualifications to speak on the subject.

        Finally, let’s go real slow over the verse’s context together:

        2:67. …Moses said to his nation: “God has commanded you to sacrifice a cow.” They said: “Are you making fun of us?” And Moses countered: “I seek God’s protection from being among the ignorant.”
        2:68. They said: “Go and call on your Lord to clarify to us what it is.” And Moses responded: “He said it’s a cow which is neither too old nor too young, but in between that, so just do what you’re being commanded.”
        2:69. And they said: “Go and call on your Lord to clarify to us what color she is.” And Moses responded: “He said it’s a yellow cow, bright in color and a pleasure for all that look at it.”
        2:70. And they said: “Go and call on your Lord to clarify to us what sort should she be, because now this whole cow situation has made us confused and all cows look the same. If God wishes for it, we’ll be guided correctly.”
        2:71. Moses retorted: “He said, it’s a cow neither trained to till land nor water fields. She’s flawless without any marks or spots.” They said: “Now, you’ve come with the truth!” So they slaughtered it, and even then were still hesitant to do it.
        2:72. When you all murdered a man and were hurling accusations at each other, God was the One to bring out what you hid.
        2:73. And so I revealed: “Strike him with a piece of it.” That’s how God restores the dead to life and shows you His miraculous signs, so that you might tie down your emotions and think.

        So now the verse in question:
        …when you all murdered a man and were hurling accusations at each other…”
        (This is addressed to the Jews and is reminding them of their history)

        “… God was the One to bring out what you hid…”
        (God is saying when they were arguing over who killed the man God ws going to be the one who revealed the truth)

        And I revealed: “Strike him with a piece of it.”
        (Again common sense, why is God ordering them to hit the corpse with a piece of the cow? This was so the dead man’s corpse would come back to life and testify who killed him. This story is literally what this chapter is named after.)

        That’s how God restores the dead to life…. (2:72-73)

        (Why is He talking about restoring the dead back to life? Oh yeah because that was the miracle.)
        “The Study Qur’an” was cute but let’s quote real scholarship now about the verse:

        Ibn Kathir(rh):
        “(And (remember) when you killed a man and disagreed among yourselves as to the crime) means, some of them said, “You killed him,” while the others said, “No you killed him…” (So We said: “Strike him (the dead man) with a piece of it (the cow)”) meaning, “any part of the cow will produce the miracle (if they struck the dead man with it)…” (Thus Allah brings the dead to life) means, “THEY STRUCK HIM WITH IT AND, HE CAME BACK TO LIFE ” … Allah made this incident proof against the Jews that the Resurrection shall occur, and ended their disputing and stubbornness over the dead person.
        http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=362

        Also Tabari, says the person who struck the cow was Moses(as). So God through Moses(as) brought the dead back to life like He did through Jesus(as).

        Now with that out of the way what does any of this have to do with John and the Trinity?

        Liked by 2 people

      • Man, you really do want to get humiliated for all to see. It’s so sad that you cannot see from the fact you went to the commentators to answer my challenge that you are actually proving my point THAT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PASSAGE IN THE ENTIRE QURAN WHERE SOMEONE OTHER THAN GOD AND JESUS GIVE LIFE TO THE DEAD!

        But now let me highlight the problem with your appeal to the expositors to fill in the details which your incoherent, unintelligible book failed to provide. The Quran repeats the point that it is a scripture which is clear:

        Thus doth God MAKE CLEAR His Signs to you: In order that ye may understand. S. 2:242 Y. Ali Medina

        Alif Lam Ra. A Book whose verses ARE SET CLEAR (ohkimat), and then distinguished, from One All-wise, All-aware: S. 11:1 Arberry Mecca

        A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation, – of a Qur’an that makes things clear. S. 15:1 Y. Ali Mecca

        And indeed We know that they (polytheists and pagans) say: “It is only a human being who teaches him (Muhammad).” The tongue of the man they refer to is foreign, while this (the Qur’an) is a clear Arabic tongue. S. 16:103 Hilali-Khan Mecca

        We verily, have made it a Qur’an in Arabic, that you may be able to understand (its meanings and its admonitions). S. 43:3 Hilali-Khan Mecca

        By the manifest Book (this Qur’an) THAT MAKES THINGS CLEAR, S. 44:2 Hilali-Khan Mecca – cf. Q. 2:187, 219, 266; 3:103, 118; 4:26, 176; 5:89; 24:18, 58-59, 61; 57:17

        The Islamic scripture also makes the repeated assertion that it is a book which fully explains all its verses:

        And thus do We explain the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) IN DETAIL, that the way of the Mujrimun (criminals, polytheists, sinners), may become manifest. S. 6:55 Hilali-Khan Mecca

        It is He Who has set the stars for you, so that you may guide your course with their help through the darkness of the land and the sea. We have (indeed) explained IN DETAIL Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, Revelations, etc.) for people who know. It is He Who has created you from a single person (Adam), and has given you a place of residing (on the earth or in your mother’s wombs) and a place of storage [in the earth (in your graves) or in your father’s loins]. Indeed, We have EXPLAINED IN DETAIL Our revelations (this Qur’an) for people who understand. S. 6:97-98

        Thus We explain variously the Verses so that they (the disbelievers) may say: “You have studied (the Books of the people of the Scripture and brought this Qur’an from that)” and that We may make the matter clear for the people who have knowledge. S. 6:105 Hilali-Khan

        [Say (O Muhammad)] “Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur’an), EXPLAINED IN DETAIL.” Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Hilali-Khan

        And this is the Path of your Lord (the Qur’an and Islam) leading Straight. We have DETAILED Our Revelations for a people who take heed. S. 6:126

        Say (O Muhammad): “Who has forbidden the adoration with clothes given by Allah, which He has produced for his slaves, and At-Taiyibat [all kinds of Halal (lawful) things] of food?” Say: “They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) exclusively for them (believers) on the Day of Resurrection (the disbelievers will not share them).” Thus We explain the Ayat (Islamic laws) IN DETAIL for people who have knowledge. S. 7:32 Hilali-Khan Mecca

        Certainly, We have brought to them a Book (the Qur’an) which We have explained IN DETAIL WITH KNOWLEDGE, – a guidance and a mercy to a people who believe. S. 7:52 Hilali-Khan

        Thus do We explain the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) IN DETAIL, so that they may turn (unto the truth). S. 7:174 Hilali-Khan

        And this Qur’an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation) which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and A FULL EXPLANATION of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) – wherein there is no doubt from the Lord of the ‘Alamin (mankind, jinns, and all that exists). S. 10:37 Hilali-Khan Mecca

        But if they repent, perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat, then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) IN DETAIL for a people who know. S. 9:11 Medina

        Alif Lam Ra. This is a Book, whose verses have been made firm and free from imperfection and then they have been expounded in detail. It is from One Wise, and All-Aware. S. 11:1 Shakir Mecca

        Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Qur’an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of Allah’s existing Books [the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allah] and A DETAILED EXPLANATION OF EVERYTHING and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe. S. 12:111 Mecca

        One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book EXPLAINING ALL THINGS, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims. S. 16:89 Y. Ali

        He sets forth for you a parable from your ownselves, – Do you have partners among those whom your right hands possess (i.e. your slaves) to share as equals in the wealth We have bestowed on you? Whom you fear as you fear each other? Thus do We explain the signs IN DETAIL to a people who have sense. S. 30:28 Hilali-Khan Mecca

        A Book whereof the Verses are explained IN DETAIL; A Qur’an in Arabic for people who know. S. 41:3 Hilali-Khan Mecca

        Here is another version of this last passage:

        A scripture whose verses PROVIDE THE COMPLETE DETAILS, in an Arabic Quran, for people who know. Khalifa

        The above verses (most of which were composed in Mecca) go out of their way to affirm that all of the Quran’s passages (not just some) are clear and fully detailed. It is therefore evident from the foregoing texts that Muhammad actually thought that the Quran was a perspicuous book which could be easily understood by the people he was communicating with.

        In fact, all throughout his stay in Mecca, and up until his final years in Medina, Muhammad was repeatedly boasting of just how clear and fully detailed his “revelation” was. This means that his audience had been led to believe that all of the verses of the Quran were perspicuous and explained in detail.

        Here is where the problem lies for you. There shouldn’t be any passage whose meaning is uncertain in a book which constantly says that it is a clear exposition, one that provides complete details for all of its verses so that others may understand. Yet not only do we find ambiguous and unintelligible passages, Q. 3:7 even admits that such verses do exist and can actually be found in the Quran!

        The Muslim scripture is therefore contradicting its own repeated emphasis and insistence that it is a complete revelation whose verses are plainly detailed.

        OUCH!

        Like

      • With that said, let me highlight two further responses with your non-response.

        First, since this fairy-tale supposed to be about an event that took place during the Exodus, please be so kind as to point out the exact passage in the Torah where we find anything remotely similar to this fable of a man being killed and brought to life by the touch of a heifer. Both the Quran and hadiths claim that the Torah given to Moses, which the Jews still possessed at the time of Muhammad, was (still is) a complete revelation that explains everything clearly:

        Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail, – and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. S. 6:154 Y. Ali

        “He said: O Moses! I have preferred thee above mankind by My messages and by My speaking (unto thee). So hold that which I have given thee, and be among the thankful. And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying): Take the better (course made clear) therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers… Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) WITH THEM…” S. 7:144-145, 157 Pickthall

        Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying: There was an argument between Adam and Moses in the presence of their Lord. Adam came the better of Moses. Moses said: Are you that Adam whom Allah created with His Hand and breathed into him His spirit, and commanded angels to fall in prostration before him and He made you live in Paradise with comfort and ease. Then you caused the people to get down to the earth because of your lapse. Adam said: Are you that Moses whom Allah selected for His Messengership and for His conversation with him and conferred upon you THE TABLETS, IN WHICH EVERYTHING WAS CLEARLY EXPLAINED and granted you the audience in order to have confidential talk with you. What is your opinion, how long Torah would have been written before I was created? Moses said: Forty years before. Adam said: Did you not see these words: Adam committed an error and he was enticed to (do so). He (Moses) said: Yes. Whereupon, he (Adam) said: Do you then blame me for an act which Allah had ordained for me forty years before He created me? Allah’s Messenger said: This is how Adam came the better of Moses. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6411)

        36 Tribulations

        (26) Chapter: The disappearance of the Quran and Knowledge

        It was narrated that Ziyad bin Labid said:

        “The Prophet mentioned something and said: ‘That will be at the time when knowledge (of Qur’an) disappears.’ I said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, how will knowledge disappear when we read the Qur’an and teach it to our children, until the Day of Resurrection?’ He said: ‘May your mother be bereft of you, Ziyad! I thought that you were the wisest man in Al- Madinah. Is it not the case that these Jews and Christians READ THE TAWRAH AND THE INJIL, but they do not act upon anything of what is in them?’”

        Grade: Da’if (Darussalam)

        Reference: Sunan Ibn Majah 4048

        In-book reference: Book 36, Hadith 123

        English translation: Vol. 5, Book 36, Hadith 4048 (sunnah.com https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/36/123; capital and underline emphasis ours)

        41 Chapters on Knowledge

        (5) Chapter: What Has Been Related About Knowledge Leaving

        Narrated Jubair bin Nufair:

        from Abu Ad-Darda who said: “We were with the Prophet when he raised his sight to the sky, then he said: ‘This is the time when knowledge is to be taken from the people, until what remains of it shall not amount to anything.” So Ziyad bin Labid Al-Ansari said: ‘How will it be taken from us while we recite the Qur’an. By Allah we recite it, and our women and children recite it?’ He said: ‘May you be bereaved of your mother O Ziyad! I used to consider you among the Fuqaha of the people of Al-Madinah. The Tawrah and Injil ARE WITH THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS, but what do they avail of them?‘” Jubair said: “So I met ‘Ubadah bin As-Samit and said to him: ‘Have you not heard what your brother Abu Ad-Darda said?’ Then I informed him of what Abu Ad-Darda said. He said: ‘Abu Ad-Darda spoke the truth. If you wish, we shall narrated to you about the first knowledge to be removed from the people: It is Khushu’, soon you will enter the congregational Masjid, but not see any man in it with Khushu’.’”

        Grade: SAHIH (Darussalam)

        Reference: Jami` at-Tirmidhi 2653

        In Book Reference: Book 41, Hadith 9

        English translation: Vol. 5, Book 39, Hadith 2653 (sunnah.com; capital emphasis ours)

        Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah to Quff. So he visited them in their school.

        They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him AND PLACED THE TORAH ON IT saying: I BELIEVED IN THEE and in Him WHO REVEALED THEE.

        He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi’ (No. 4431).”

        Grade: Hasan (Al-Albani) (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38. Kitab al Hudud (“The Book of Prescribed Punishments”), Number 4434; capital emphasis ours)

        Now this means that this fairy tale of Muhammad’s over active imagination will surely be found in the Torah if it actually occurred. And yet the Torah is completely silent about this nonsense story.

        Finally AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, even this fable DOESN’T ANSWER MY CHALLENGE since the passage DOESN’T MENTION PERSON BREATHING LIFE INTO A LIFELESS OBJECT OR ACTUALLY RAISING A DEAD PERSON TO LIFE. It only says that a group of Israelites touched the body with a piece of heifer, NO MORE NO LESS.

        Therefore, let me repeat my challenge FOR THE FIFTH TIME. Please cite a Quranic verse WHERE A PROPHET BREATHED LIFE INTO A CLAY OBJECT CAUSING IT TO COME TO LIFE OR WHERE HE PERSONALLY RAISED THE DEAD. AND THEN QUOTE A PASSAGE WHERE IT SAYS SOMEONE OTHER THAN GOD WILL GIVE LIFE TO THE DEAD AND RAISE THEM FROM THEIR GRAVES AT THE LAST DAY/HOUR.

        You are starting to bore me and are becoming a complete waste of time. Therefore, if you do not answer honestly then I promise to ignore you and advise you to return back to sipping on your cup of camel urine per the advice of your prophet.

        Like

  4. Also because you don’t realize the silliness in what you said (as I never said “bithnallah” (by God’s permission) was in the ayat (which btw is an actual strawman)

    I’ll ask a really basic question:
    “What do the statements: “There is no power except through God” and “God is in complete control over all things” mean?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Finally, regarding your alleged “textual corruption” of the Quran, even if you prove it that still doesn’t prove the Bible. It just would mean both religions are false.

      Liked by 1 person

  5. Now that I again refuted Stewey’s fluff and rabbit trails I am going to repeat my challenge for the UMPTEENTH time, this time in all caps so people see how Stewey keeps tap dancing from answering my challenges. Here goes.

    PLEASE QUOTE A VERSE FROM EITHER THE HOLY BIBLE OR THE QURAN WHERE A PROPHET CLAIMS THE DIVINE NAMES AND TITLES THAT THE QURAN AND ISLAMIC THEOLOGY ASCRIBE TO GOD ALONE. CITE A PROPHET SAYING HE IS THE RESURRECTION, THE LIFE OR THE TRUTH.

    PLEASE QUOTE A PASSAGE FROM EITHER BOOKS WHERE SOMEONE OTHER THAN THE TRUE GOD WILL COME TO THE EARTH AT THE LAST DAY/HOUR TO RAISE THE DEAD FROM THEIR GRAVES AND THEN JUDGE THEM.

    PLEASE QUOTE A SINGLE VERSE FROM YOUR QURAN WHERE SOMEONE OTHER THAN GOD AND JESUS BREATHE LIFE INTO CLAY OBJECTS AND BRING THEM INTO LIFE OR RAISE THE DEAD FROM THEIR GRAVES.

    Now watch the Islamic tap dance take place.

    Liked by 1 person

    • To begin the only reason to insult is to add fluff so that your argument looks stronger. I have not insulted you so you can’t claim “righteous anger” it is simply arrogance to try and look smarter.

      The next point is again none of this is relevant to your article, John or the concept of the trinity. One can’t but wonder at the fact that you claim to be logical but can’t even stay within the confounds of the discussion. This also help prove my initial post which was it’s hard to even tell what you’re contending. If you weren’t so concerned with corny insults you could focus more on making a coherent argument. Just look at how you shotgun irrelevant tangents. Act like a god fearing man instead of a child.

      Now the verse is clear to understand without commentary, you just denied the meaning of the verse. I then simply quoted actual scholarly commentary like how you tried quoting the Study Qur’an to strengthen my position. So this the second time you made a claim and were wrong. You’re initial challenge was as follows:

      “Cite a passage WHERE YOUR QURAN REFERS TO A PROPHET RAISING THE DEAD BESIDES ALLAH AND JESUS.”

      “CITE AN EXAMPLE WHERE A PROPHET RAISED A DEAD PERSON BACK TO LIFE.”

      Nothing about breathing life into the thing being brought to life, the last hour from the graves etc. Same thing in regards to whether the story is common between us or not as the argument was from the Qur’an. You have now engaged in a “moving the goalpost fallacy.” Here’s another explanation for you:

      So in Surah Baqarah someone other than God and Jesus(as) raise the dead. In this case, the person who hit the dead body with the piece of the cow. Also as a note we can add Abraham(as) and the birds.

      But here let’s do this because you know the weakness of your argument for the Trinity in John as has been clearly established because of your refusal to use a proper methodology of interpretation. I’ll keep it simple, you understand God is One and you should worship Him alone right? Just need a yes or no.

      Liked by 4 people

  6. Shamoun and Wood did a good job of answering Muslim questions and issues. They covered issues like:
    The Trinity, baptism, Bart Ehrman, textual variants, Allah as the best deceiver – Surah 7:99; Abu Bakr’s fear of Allah’s deception (Makr مکر

    They demolished the Islamic religion.

    Check it out.

    Liked by 1 person

    • All these objections have been discussed and refuted many times before. Nothing new there.

      Liked by 1 person

    • This kind of stupid videos tell us that christians have lost the debate with muslims because if you just search enough , you will find that these stupidity got refuted long time ago.
      Now for christians the matter is all about money and filthiness.
      Thank Allah for exposing them and exposing their hatred.
      “Then how [will it be] when the angels take them in death, striking their faces and their backs?
      That is because they followed what angered Allah and disliked [what earns] His pleasure, so He rendered worthless their deeds.
      𝗢𝗿 𝗱𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗼𝘀𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝘄𝗵𝗼𝘀𝗲 𝗵𝗲𝗮𝗿𝘁𝘀 𝗶𝘀 𝗱𝗶𝘀𝗲𝗮𝘀𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗸 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗔𝗹𝗹𝗮𝗵 𝘄𝗼𝘂𝗹𝗱 𝗻𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗿 𝗲𝘅𝗽𝗼𝘀𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 [𝗳𝗲𝗲𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗴𝘀 𝗼𝗳] 𝗵𝗮𝘁𝗿𝗲𝗱?” QT

      Liked by 1 person

      • Except you nor anyone else never refuted their points. you may think someone did; but they did not.

        I am just curious, why don’t you give the reference to the Qur’an verses you put up?

        QT = Qur’an Translation – but you don’t tell us which Surah or Ayeh it is like Surah 7:99

        “Then did they feel secure from the plan of Allah ? But no one feels secure from the plan (deception, cunning, scheme, Makr مکر ) of Allah except the losing people.”
        أَفَأَمِنُوا مَكْرَ اللَّهِ ۚ فَلَا يَأْمَنُ مَكْرَ اللَّهِ إِلَّا الْقَوْمُ الْخَاسِرُونَ – 7:99

        Liked by 1 person

      • “The 99 to 1 rule” that Muslim apologists operate by, that they talked about at the last 10 minutes was brilliant.

        Like

      • Ken, you may ask your old man about that verse to know that this kind of stupidity got refuted by your own old school that you have divorced. I told you! Christians lost the honest debate with muslims long time ago, and that’s why they lean to this filthiness that you see in that filthy channel.
        But to be sure, your opinion about muslims doesn’t negate the fact that muslims wiped the floor with those filthy men.

        Like

  7. Hi folks.

    I have just had to delete a comment as it contained a great deal of abuse.

    Please keep it civil. I know very strong disagreements between people can quickly descend into name calling – and worse.

    Let’s make this thread an exception

    thanks

    Paul

    Liked by 5 people

  8. Ken, you may ask your old man about that verse to know that this kind of stupidity got refuted by your own old school that you have divorced.

    Not understandable.

    old man = ?
    (my father died in 1996)

    Old school = ?

    divorced = ?

    What in the world are you talking about?

    Like

  9. I think it’s the right moment to end the discussion here.

    Like

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